Transit City Plan

[sixrings]

I agree.
I think nothing can be worse than how TTC is run at present. Let it be privatized, or taken over by the Province. Anything is better.

i think the bigger problem is that expansion always becomes a political issue and plans keep being reworked instead of just building something. as frusterated as i am sometimes with the ttc service i come to grips that it is underfunded by both the provincial and federal government. they province especially is more concerned with the 905 commuter then the 416 commuter. as a result it would seem that allowing the province to run the ttc would just make matters nutreal or worse. we need more funding not a takeover.

 

[nfitz]

a. original breakdown of funding for transit city projects going ahead in may 2010 after mcguinty delayed $4 billion in funding

That's broken down very clearly in a May 19, 2010 Metrolinx presentation - http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/board_agenda/20100519/Five_in_Ten_Board_web.pdf

Note that in the detailed cash flows on page 25 and 26 they are in escalated (year of spending) dollars rather than 2010 dollars, so the $8.15 billion 2010 dollars becomes $12.7 billion by the time you've spent the last of it 20 years later.

 

[leopetr]

Surface (to me anyway) just means that it's not running in a tunnel or elevated. It doesn't exclude the possibility of ducking under intersections, or being partially depressed in-median.

The original plan was to duck under the Don Mills intersection, so it makes sense for this to be considered where appropriate.

 

[BMO]

I think there are pros and cons.
Two cities shouldn't become one if they have fundamentally different views about how a city should be run. If one is very liberal and urban minded and the other is extremely suburban minded, the resulting conflict and loss and efficiency will likely overweigh the benefit. It is like Obama and Sara Palin shouldn't marry each other just because they can save money as a couple.

You make an interesting point, but you should also think of why Toronto is how it is and why Scarborough and the inner suburbs are how they are. Both cities grew up with influences from each other. I don't believe urban growth is politically drive, I believe it is driven by social circumstances, and the nature of the environment a city grows up in. Nature over nurture. Toronto is so dense in the Central business district (CBD) because it so happened that over time, a large amount of industry and offices went there, so people wanted to live closer to where there was work.

I think regardless of where you go in North America, and to some extent the whole western world, you will find similar growth trends to Toronto, albeit in differing intensities and urban designs. What I mean to say is that, how a city grows, I don't believe, is dictated by politics. It is dictated by necessity, and it's need to change. Over the next fifty years, due to necessity, you'll see the inner suburbs becoming denser as people realize that living farther and farther away is not sustainable. 50 yrs ago, Toronto was a much smaller city. Living out in Vaughan, or Scarborough and commuting to Toronto by car, didn't affect anybody, there was very little congestion. In fact many highways in North America were built right through downtown cores.

Speaking of larger tax base, it might be true. However, without scarb and etobicoke, we cans imply focus on a much smaller and denser area and don't have to built subways to Siberia in the first place. It might save a lot of money.

The City of San Francisco and Boston are good examples of not amalgating surrounding cities. They are similar in population than Mississauga yet are still great cities to live in.

I must admit, San Francisco and Boston are my two favourite cities in the U.S., and are definitely good examples of where a bunch of smaller municipalities worked together to create regional transportation (i.e. the Big Dig, BART in San Fran). In these cases though, a lot of funding came from upper levels of government (BIG DIG was funded by the feds) and the creation of a regional transportation agency with greater power to plan transportation helped in this regard (I believe Boston's system has the Charlie card which is what presto is aiming towards), kind of like taking the politics out of transportation planning.

So you are right that it can work, but I would not take the exceptions as the rule.

 

[11th]

There is nothing west on Sheppard from Avenue Rd to slightly east of Bathurst, then some small 6-0 storey condos

There's nothing wrong with 6 storeys condos, it's just there isn't much foot traffic. Bloor east of Castle Frank to Broadview goes over the Don Valley, and Danforth onwards have many 1-3 storeys buildings. However, Sheppard was never a "destination subway" to begin with, unlike the Yonge line.

 

[sixrings]

There's nothing wrong with 6 storeys condos, it's just there isn't much foot traffic. Bloor east of Castle Frank to Broadview goes over the Don Valley, and Danforth onwards have many 1-3 storeys buildings. However, Sheppard was never a "destination subway" to begin with, unlike the Yonge line.

i dont think thats the issue with only having 6 floor condos on sheppard. bloor is grabbing riders from both north and south of it. considerably noth and south. the sheppard subway is north of the 401 which basically causes it to get no one from south of the 401 and there are only 2 major streets north of it, finch and steeles. not only that but the density in these areas is nothing like whats around bloor. as a result bloor can still attract the needed riders despite being inly 3 floors in height but sheppard would never reach its goal with 6 floors of height.

 

[ellett44]

That's broken down very clearly in a May 19, 2010 Metrolinx presentation - http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/board_agenda/20100519/Five_in_Ten_Board_web.pdf

Note that in the detailed cash flows on page 25 and 26 they are in escalated (year of spending) dollars rather than 2010 dollars, so the $8.15 billion 2010 dollars becomes $12.7 billion by the time you've spent the last of it 20 years later.

Thanks nfitz for the useful link. So with council approving 3 of the 4 projects (Finch West, Eglinton, Scarborough RT conversion) are we to assume that any leftover funding will be earmarked for whatever the experts believe is to be done on Sheppard? Lastly, what will be the connectivity for the new Scarborough RT after conversion to LRT. Will it run as before requiring a transfer to the Eg crosstown or BD subway or will it run as part of the crosstown route?

Thanks again.

 

[sixrings]

Thanks nfitz for the useful link. So with council approving 3 of the 4 projects (Finch West, Eglinton, Scarborough RT conversion) are we to assume that any leftover funding will be earmarked for whatever the experts believe is to be done on Sheppard? Lastly, what will be the connectivity for the new Scarborough RT after conversion to LRT. Will it run as before requiring a transfer to the Eg crosstown or BD subway or will it run as part of the crosstown route?

Thanks again.

i hope the comprimise on eglinton comes with stop spacing and they are able to keep the srt part of eglinton.

 

[rfid]

I don't see the point of "asking the people in scarborough what they want".
If you walk about and ask if they would like to take the subway for free, they would like it too. People in North Bay wants a subway as well, should they get that?
Plus, you can't just ask the folks in Scarborough. You need to ask everyone, since the money will come from everyone's tax, not just scarborough residents.

Maybe Scarborough and Etobicoke should just leave Toronto and become their own cities, since the interests can't be aligned. Toronto will be better managed with just Old TO, North York, York and East York.

Scarborough was quite well off pre-amalgamation and debt-free: http://www.insidetoronto.com/print/43289

 

[Electrify]

The more I think about it, the more I think that a Sheppard LRT should run across to the Spadina line rather than Finch. First people going across to Etobicoke will be going from Sheppard to the Finch line via the Spadina line, which is significantly less crowded than the Yonge. Second, you could extend it beyond Downsview and have it end at the Sheppard West/Downsview GO station.

As for the SRT not continuing along Eglinton, two good things come out of this which are worth pointing out. First, it reduces the potential for overcrowding at Eglinton. Secondly, it gives passengers choices. Those heading to midtown can take the Eglinton line, Yorkville can take the Danforth line, and downtown can take the GO train - which will have all day frequent service by then.

As I mentioned earlier, having the SRT connect with the Sheppard line will help it stand on its own as a north-south trunk route, rather than a subway extension done on the cheap.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Not that I support de-amalgamation at this point in time, but to argue that it would have remained debt-free if it is independent now is conjecture at best, considering the demographic changes it had experienced, aging infrastructure and the almost built-out status. Plus I believe Scarborough residents actually benefited from the CVA, relative to the old City of Toronto?

AoD

 

[Electrify]

The rule of thumb for transit planning is a quarter mile walk for local services, and a half mile walk for rapid service. To translate this to our bi-kilometer grid, a stop every 500m (three mid-block stops) for local and every 1000m (one mod-block stop) for rapid.

Or a 5-6 minute walk between local stops, and a 10-12 minute walk between rapid stops.

 

[Electrify]

500 metres takes about 5 minutes, unless you spend an awful long time stuck on red lights. Eglinton to Lawrence is 2.0 km (2,000 metres). About 20 minutes.

Google maps is good at predicting walking times. Most people walk a bit faster than they predict (the have 6 minutes for 500 metres).

Average walking speed is 80m per minute, so 500m takes a little more than 6 minutes.

 

[kkgg7]

Or a 5-6 minute walk between local stops, and a 10-12 minute walk between rapid stops.

That's exactly how bus/streetcars and subways should function in Toronto.

May I say it again, walking for 10 minutes to transit will not kill anyone. In fact if everyone does so, including seniors, it may help with our healthcare costs. My mother was shocked to see in this country there are actually people in wheelchairs just because they are too fat to move. She had seen fat people, just not that fat. I would assume most are not because of a disease, which is a different story.

 

[sixrings]

i am pro big spacing and i think anything over 850m is probably to much.