Transit City Plan

[rfid]

rfid:

Express tracks will probably not offer as much benefit as a full DRL - and building underneath an existing subway line (plus retrofitting existing stations) will be even more expensive. You can sink the entire 8 billion and get very little in return.

AoD

Perhaps provisionally for new lines?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Just convert the entire line to LRT so that one doesn't need multiple transfers - it is pretty clear there are no funds to have anything more than a one or two stop subway extension by itself. Take your pick. Personally, at this point I am more concerned about the state of SRT/Eglinton - leaving them as two separate lines is IMO undesirable.

BD extension is to be studied, like the DRL. It is not an option to be funded by the 8B (not like there will be anything leftover for it) I am not convinced by the utility of having BOTH Sheppard and a BD extension at the same priority. One, or the other - and personally I'd chose a BD extension over anything on Sheppard for the foreseeable future.

AoD

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

rfid:

DRL = Downtown Relief Line - a proposal that has been hanging around for awhile that would see subway going from somewhere in the downtown core east and northward, with an interchange on Bloor, then heading northward to "siphon" riders before they hit the Yonge line. So yes, it is meant to be a completely new line - and probably one that is more expensive than Eglinton.

AoD

 

[andrewpmk]

Express tracks are pointless in Toronto. We need more lines first.

 

[rfid]

rfid:

DRL = Downtown Relief Line - a proposal that has been hanging around for awhile that would see subway going from somewhere in the downtown core east and northward, with an interchange on Bloor, then heading northward to "siphon" riders before they hit the Yonge line. So yes, it is meant to be a completely new line - and probably one that is more expensive than Eglinton.

AoD

Whoops, I meant to say plan new lines with the option for express track. However, one problem I see is that the only place that might benefit from express tracks now, it's too late and prohibitively expensive to build. So how would one ever plan that a line may eventually need express service (much like who would have imagined a subway crossing the Don Valley).

On the other hand, the DRL is a viable alternative. And if it were not, then the analysis would result in build express tracks. But just say one day we reach the point again that the DRL is exceeding capacity. Do we look back and say we should have built express tracks or do we build another relief line? It almost sounds like the LRT vs. subway debate doesn't it?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

rfid:

Probably another line parallel to it. Designing Bloor Viaduct to carry subway is one thing - sizing an entire subway line for the day when it might accommodate express trains (which, in the worst case scenario will result in the doubling of tracks) is another entirely.

AoD

 

[rfid]

Not that I support de-amalgamation at this point in time, but to argue that it would have remained debt-free if it is independent now is conjecture at best, considering the demographic changes it had experienced, aging infrastructure and the almost built-out status. Plus I believe Scarborough residents actually benefited from the CVA, relative to the old City of Toronto?

AoD

True, but we did add more costs by bringing the level of service to the highest common denominator.

One could argue had Scarborough not pushed for CVA if it would have turned into what it is today. It would not be a cheap area to live.

 

[gweed123]

Whoops, I meant to say plan new lines with the option for express track. However, one problem I see is that the only place that might benefit from express tracks now, it's too late and prohibitively expensive to build. So how would one ever plan that a line may eventually need express service (much like who would have imagined a subway crossing the Don Valley).

On the other hand, the DRL is a viable alternative. And if it were not, then the analysis would result in build express tracks. But just say one day we reach the point again that the DRL is exceeding capacity. Do we look back and say we should have built express tracks or do we build another relief line? It almost sounds like the LRT vs. subway debate doesn't it?

GO Transit can conceivably fulfill this "express" need. Especially if it connects at a major suburban node and goes down to Union. If the start and end points of the line are the same, it can be seen as an express route. For example: the hub at Black Creek & Eglinton. If it has GO and the Eglinton LRT, the LRT would be the local route, and the GO the express route (as long as passengers are going downtown).

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Potentially for certain types of trips, but for other scenarios, it works only if GO dramatically up its' frequencies. A 15 minute wait cuts into flexibility for the riders.

AoD

 

[EnviroTO]

Most people in the Toronto area DO NOT work downtown. Although the DRL is needed to deal with expansion in downtown employment, most employment is in the burbs.

Yes but employment downtown is compacted in one place, but employment in the burbs is spread out. That means you need a solution that packs commuters in going downtown, and a spread out solution in the burbs. For the same price as a subway on Sheppard you can put LRT on Finch, Sheppard, and Lawrence which puts transit in walking distance of the employment that is spread out rather than all on Sheppard.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I can't imagine any public transit getting me to work efficiently from Cabbagetown to Markham rd and Hwy 7. My drive is about 40 min over 30+ kms. Any public transit option would take two hours.

 

[BurlOak]

With Transit City now approved by City Council, the effort needs to move on to selling LRTs to Torontonians. I've never seen so many ignorant comments on my Facebook feed. I've spent the day today correcting myths and trying to educate my friends and their friends. David Miller's biggest failure was not selling Transit City to Torontonians. He was busy getting the Province to pay for it but with Torontonians behind it, Ford might never have been elected, and he surely would not have been able to illegally cancel it for a year.

Transit City provides local service and people want more of an express service. I do not think the problem is the LRT's, it is with GO. If people could see GO as integrated with the TTC for longer trips, then Transit City would look a lot better.

 

[BurlOak]

An old, but now more relevant than ever PDF of options for the Finch-Sheppard corridor. Reading it now...

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/regiona...ases/Benefits Case _ Sheppard-Finch_Final.pdf

I am not really sure what to do with Sheppard. Part of me thinks that it should continue as started with subway. The other part says to improve service at minimal cost now (I will ignore BRT for now), and keep the option open for a subway extension in 30 years time. (What would the timeframe be for a major reconstruction of the tracks?)

At quick glance, does this report not say that the best option is a Sheppard East - Don Mills - Finch continuous LRT? This would eliminate the transfer altogether for crosstown travel. It would orphan the Sheppard subway though.

I also question the need for a tunnel under highway 404. This 500m stretch costs the same or more than the rest of the entire Sheppard line. I believe another study looked at options to tunnelling ( http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/sheppard_east_lrt/pdf/completion/ea_report_master_part2.pdf ). This study dismissed an at-grade median station on Sheppard near Don Mills (loss of traffic lane) and an elevated section over 404 with station at grade or re-using bus terminal (lengthy walk). However, with the continuous LRT here via Finch, and if the option to take the GO to downtown existed, there would be much fewer transfers and perhaps a less than ideal tranfer may be adequate.

The stops also seem a bit excessive to me. In Scarborough, the main roads are about 1000m apart. The plan is for a spacing of about 500m - I might have gone with 1000m in most spots. In North York, the main roads are 2000m apart. The plan has spacing of generally 500m to 700m where maybe 700m to 1000m would have been more appropriate. The problem is that now that the tight spacing has been promised, it will be hard to take away.

 

[ssiguy2]

Metroman...
We know what the difference between streetcars/trams and LRT are so you don't have to be quite so insulting.
They are EXACTLY the same vehicles and both are accessible, low-level accessible, and have the same technology.
Both can use POP and ROW if beeded. There are only two main differences between the two............LRT cars can be coupled together which increases their capacity and LRT trains can be run from both ends so turn around stations are not needed.
Comparing the Paris situation and Toronto's is disingenous in the extreme. Paris has a large, high density Metro and commuter system that Toronto can only dream of. They already have a huge backbone system while Tonto's in comparison is mickey mouse.
Paris built their trams for improved local service because they already have a stellar mass/rapid transit system to back it up.
Eglinton being the main road it is requires a fully grade separated system whether that be tunneled, trenched, using rail ROW, elevated or a combination of any of them. Unfortunately, in Toronto huge cost savings of trenched or elevated options are somehow considered heresy.
The issue for Eglinton is NOT whether it be tunneled or at grade but rather should it be totally grade separated or not.

 

[andrewpmk]

I can't imagine any public transit getting me to work efficiently from Cabbagetown to Markham rd and Hwy 7. My drive is about 40 min over 30+ kms. Any public transit option would take two hours.

If the Stouffville line had high frequency service then you could use that to get pretty close to Markham/Highway 7. Then you could take 505 streetcar, then Bloor-Danforth line, then Stouffville line and it would take about 1 hour.

Unfortunately, the only reasonable public transit option for you right now is infrequent GO bus service (once an hour). You would be better off moving closer to work (if this is at all possible). Traffic on DVP & 404 sucks in both directions in rush hour.