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Transit City Plan

Which transit plan do you prefer?

  • Transit City

    Votes: 95 79.2%
  • Ford City

    Votes: 25 20.8%

  • Total voters
    120
I am trying to find the costs of various subway (or underground LRT) proposals. This is the best that I could do.

YUS to Vaughan: 8.6 km for $2.6B = $300 M/km
YUS to Richomnd Hill: 6.8 km for $2.4B = $350 M/km
B-D to Sherway: 3.7 km for $1.0B = $270 M/km
B-D to STC (Scarborough): 5.5 km for $2B = $360 M/km
Downtown Relief Line (Queen): 7 km for $2.1B = $300 M/km
Sheppard West to Downsview: 4.2 km for $1.75B = $420 B/km
Sheppard East to STC: 8 km for $4.2B = $510 B/km
Eglinton Crosstown (Black Creek to McCowan): 25 km for $8.2B = $320 B/km

These may not be fully accurate, or up-to-date. Please correct me with better numbers if available. The numbers may not be consistent in that some may include cars and storage facilities, while others do not.

What I find interesting is that the estimates seem highest for the ones that Ford wants (i.e. Sheppard East and West, B-D to STC) and are less for the DRL. I would say DRL has to most complex engineering - fitting a line through downtown. the Vaughan and Richmond Hill extension would probably have the most complex bus station requirements. But somehow, the estimate for Sheppard is highest. Are those responsible for coming up with the estimate deliberately trying to make all the Ford ideas appear less feasible?

$1 billion for the B-D extension to Sherway? This seems extremely expensive to me given that it ought to be possible to build it entirely above ground. Never mind that a high-frequency GO train line from Union to Cooksville and possibly to Milton, which could have a stop just north of Sherway, would be much more beneficial.
 
$1 billion for the B-D extension to Sherway? This seems extremely expensive to me given that it ought to be possible to build it entirely above ground. Never mind that a high-frequency GO train line from Union to Cooksville and possibly to Milton, which could have a stop just north of Sherway, would be much more beneficial.

I kind of doubt that the Milton line would add a stop in at Sherway. And Sherway is a fair bit south of the rail corridor, so some sort of tunnel or elevated structure would need to be built.

I'm in favour of a Sherway extension, but a bit further down the road, once the density has really been boosted around that area. It isn't there yet, but the offices and condos that have been built and that are under construction now are a good start.
 
Not seeing your point here. Chretien is an intelligent well-educated man with multiple degrees. He was a lawyer ... Ford's legal experience is rather different.

Or is this an attempt to make fun of Chretien's physical disability?

Who said anything about physical disability!!

Chretien had some good policies and some bad - but I think the current state of the Liberal Party of Cananda is the result of his leadership, and what occurred during his time as PM. Chretien and George Bush were both well educated men. Along with Mike Harris, Ralph Klein, and possibly Ford, all portrayed a commen man image which had enough appeal to get each elected (and re-elected?). Also, it is not only lawyers that can lead us.
 
Who said anything about physical disability!!
You didn't, but said something about beauty and brains which I couldn't understand a word of. Fair enough, I just don't understand the comparison to Chretien, who surely is the opposite of Ford in so many ways. Intelligent versus evidence of below average intelligence. Well-educated versus a double first-year dropout. In good physical shape versus ... well I don't know what you call it. Well spoken versus can be taught to repeat key phrases. Works very well with others compared to ... well ...

Chretien had some good policies and some bad - but I think the current state of the Liberal Party of Cananda is the result of his leadership, and what occurred during his time as PM.
I think it has more to do with it being run into the ground for the decade or so since his departure. Paul Martin wasn't good for the party structure. Neither was Dion. And Ignatieff didn't have a clue what he was doing.

Along with Mike Harris, Ralph Klein, and possibly Ford, all portrayed a commen man image which had enough appeal to get each elected (and re-elected?).
You actually think there's a possibility that Ford could be re-elected? Have you seen his approval ratings? Never has a mayor's approval fallen so quickly, so fast. It took Miller 6 years and a garbage strike to get that low. Ford seems to have gotten there already, but in order to make it even lower, he seems to be trying to create another garbage strike. Ford was elected because he convinced many that there was too much waste in government, and that the could eliminate the waste and taxes without cutting services. Ford was elected because he wouldn't cut services. Many people believed that. After 4 years of cuts and constant threats of more cuts, I can't imagine that many will fall for that again. Unless the next 2.5 years are radically different to the first year, I think Ford has little chance to be re-elected. And to bring this back on topic, I'm not even sure he will have the support of council to proceed with his Sheppard subway gravytrain.
 
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I think it has more to do with it being run into the ground for the decade or so since his departure. Paul Martin wasn't good for the party structure. Neither was Dion. And Ignatieff didn't have a clue what he was doing.

I think the key to being electable in politics these days is to have intelligence, but to also be able to relate to the commoners. Chrétien was really good at that. Now having said that, he also benefited from the same type of split opposition that Harper is benefitting from now. I believe that most of his majority governments (if not all of them) were won with under 50% of the popular vote. However, because the right was split in much the same way that the left is today, he was able to get elected with a majority.

Dion and Ignatieff both failed in the same area: communication of their ideas with the general public. Those who were interested in the topics and bothered to do any actual research saw the merits of their ideas, but the average Joe read the headline and was instantly against them (NeoCon attack ads didn't help).

I do think it is harder for politicians on the left to get their ideas across though, mainly because the ideas are so much more complex, and a lot of the time they require looking beyond what you yourself need, and looking at the greater good of society. Conservative ideals play to our baser instincts ("What's mine is mine, and don't you dare try and take it from me. Work for it yourself."), and thus are much easier to explain. Every problem is a lot simpler when you only have to take care of your own interests. It's only when you start to take into account what other people may need too that problems start to seem more complex (or in many cases, start to appear closer to what they actually are).

You actually think there's a possibility that Ford could be re-elected? Have you seen his approval ratings? Never has a mayor's approval fallen so quickly, so fast. It took Miller 6 years and a garbage strike to get that low. Ford seems to have gotten there already, but in order to make it even lower, he seems to be trying to create another garbage strike. Ford was elected because he convinced many that there was too much waste in government, and that the could eliminate the waste and taxes without cutting services. Ford was elected because he wouldn't cut services. Many people believed that. After 4 years of cuts and constant threats of more cuts, I can't imagine that many will fall for that again. Unless the next 2.5 years are radically different to the first year, I think Ford has little chance to be re-elected. And to bring this back on topic, I'm not even sure he will have the support of council to proceed with his Sheppard subway gravytrain.

Never underestimate the ability of NeoCons to create a reality distortion field. Facts are only facts if they support their ideology, if not they're lies concocted by the liberal elite in order to spread socialist ideals. We live in a sound byte society. Whoever can come up with the best idea (grounded in reality or not) that fits into a catchy sound byte will likely win over a significant number of people. Unfortunately, the right pretty much has exclusivity over this territory, as sound bytes like "stop the gravy train" are much more appealing to the average Joe than "we need to continue with the various policies and plans that have been laid out in the City of Toronto Official Plan". The former resides in the gut, the latter resides in the brain. For a lot of people, the brain doesn't even factor into the voting equation.

Ford actually made people believe that the city was drowning in debt, and that the budget was spilling red ink anywhere. The facts didn't seem to enter the equation at all. Will people be smarter come next election? I hope so. But never underestimate the power of a good spin.
 
Ford actually made people believe that the city was drowning in debt, and that the budget was spilling red ink anywhere.
Well, it's not as if the city was the poster child of budgetary restraint.

The facts didn't seem to enter the equation at all. Will people be smarter come next election? I hope so. But never underestimate the power of a good spin.
Yeah, like how a bridge to the island airport would be death to the city.
 
I am trying to find the costs of various subway (or underground LRT) proposals. This is the best that I could do.

YUS to Vaughan: 8.6 km for $2.6B = $300 M/km
YUS to Richomnd Hill: 6.8 km for $2.4B = $350 M/km
B-D to Sherway: 3.7 km for $1.0B = $270 M/km
B-D to STC (Scarborough): 5.5 km for $2B = $360 M/km
Downtown Relief Line (Queen): 7 km for $2.1B = $300 M/km
Sheppard West to Downsview: 4.2 km for $1.75B = $420 B/km
Sheppard East to STC: 8 km for $4.2B = $510 B/km
Eglinton Crosstown (Black Creek to McCowan): 25 km for $8.2B = $320 B/km

These may not be fully accurate, or up-to-date. Please correct me with better numbers if available. The numbers may not be consistent in that some may include cars and storage facilities, while others do not.

What I find interesting is that the estimates seem highest for the ones that Ford wants (i.e. Sheppard East and West, B-D to STC) and are less for the DRL. I would say DRL has to most complex engineering - fitting a line through downtown. the Vaughan and Richmond Hill extension would probably have the most complex bus station requirements. But somehow, the estimate for Sheppard is highest. Are those responsible for coming up with the estimate deliberately trying to make all the Ford ideas appear less feasible?

AFAIK, "Sheppard West to Downsview" plus "Sheppard East to STC" combined was estimated at $4.5B. Divided by 12.5 km, that translates to $360 M/km and is compatible with most of other numbers in your list.

Regarding DRL, note that there was no recent detailed study. Most likely, the $2.1B quote was obtained by taking the $300 M/km ballpark estimate and multiplying it by 7 km. I am sure that the real cost will be higher, at least for the downtown segment.
 
Well, it's not as if the city was the poster child of budgetary restraint.

There's a difference between a lack of budgetary restraint and drowning in red ink though. Are there places in the budget where money could be saved? Absolutely. Did Ford need to blow up a bunch of revenue streams in order to find them? Hell no.

Yeah, like how a bridge to the island airport would be death to the city.

I don't like how that became an election issue, because it shouldn't have. But I would like to point out though that there's a bit of a difference between wanting to cancel a $50 million bridge (I think that was the cost, not 100% sure though), and wanting to cancel an $8.15 billion transit plan.
 
Did Ford need to blow up a bunch of revenue streams in order to find them? Hell no.
I'm not even sure Ford found many of them. Do we really need 5 city halls? Particularly East York ... even the Toronto/East York council doesn't meet there. And they still haven't cut sidewalk plowing for some areas, yet others survive just fine without it (and pay the same taxes).
 
I'm not even sure Ford found many of them. Do we really need 5 city halls? Particularly East York ... even the Toronto/East York council doesn't meet there. And they still haven't cut sidewalk plowing for some areas, yet others survive just fine without it (and pay the same taxes).
Those are good points. They should be explored.

I don't like how that became an election issue, because it shouldn't have. But I would like to point out though that there's a bit of a difference between wanting to cancel a $50 million bridge (I think that was the cost, not 100% sure though), and wanting to cancel an $8.15 billion transit plan.
It could be argued it wasn't cancelled, but just altered, to suit his voters.

Ultimately though, this is Eglinton subway is a compromise solution, based on a pre-existing LRT plan. As for Sheppard, that's irrelevant, because it's a pie-in-the-sky plan that will go nowhere, and the Ford people know it.
 
Here is a very interesting concept that would be ideal on suburban streets like Finch and would make Ford happy too.
It has an excellent video, take a boo. www.skytrolley.com

is this done in any city. they mention germany and japan but those are different types of systems. i want to see the elevator work in real life conditions. the video says 2009 so if there havent been any takers, why not??? what are the negatives besides being elevated.
 
is this done in any city. they mention germany and japan but those are different types of systems. i want to see the elevator work in real life conditions. the video says 2009 so if there havent been any takers, why not??? what are the negatives besides being elevated.

I think it's a very interesting concept, however given the TTC's ability to keep escalators and elevators at existing stations in operation, I have my doubts that they'll be able to keep an entire platform that moves in operation.
 
Why is is even necessary that the whole platform elevate? I'm reasonably certain that there are existing elevated trains that don't have their entire platform reliant on mechanical gear.
 

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