Transit City Plan

[gweed123]

Either SLRT and ECLRT continuous with some type of grade seperation, as you describe, OR B-D should be extended to STC, in which case ECLRT could be in-median at grade.

Agreed, however I think that while the B-D extension to STC had some discussion merit (and was the preferred solution in my mind) back in 2006 when TC was released, or 2009 when it was scaled back, or maybe even in 2010 when Ford was elected, I don't think that it holds as much weight in 2012. Why? Because the SRT is on its last leg, and delaying replacement of that line even further is going to cause a headache. If they could get shovels in the ground by late 2014/early 2015, then I would say it's a valid option, but look at the timelines of other subway projects, and you're realistically looking at 2017 or 2018. At this point, that's too long to wait, especially when you consider it would be at least a 3-4 year project.

Bus (BRT or BRT lite) on Sheppard and/or Finch East along with frequent LRT on GO ROW from Agincourt to Kennedy Station would be more then enough for this area.

Agreed, although I would prefer to see the ESLRT extended up to Sheppard instead of a mini-LRT running from Kennedy to Agincourt. If I understand your methodology correctly, you're trying to create a N-S transfer route for Sheppard East riders, correct? If that's the case, better to just simplify the scenario and have the N-S connection to Sheppard be the ESLRT.

But yes, BRT is more that sufficient on Sheppard, as even the graphic from the SELRT EA demonstrates.

 

[BurlOak]

Agreed, although I would prefer to see the ESLRT extended up to Sheppard instead of a mini-LRT running from Kennedy to Agincourt. If I understand your methodology correctly, you're trying to create a N-S transfer route for Sheppard East riders, correct? If that's the case, better to just simplify the scenario and have the N-S connection to Sheppard be the ESLRT.

But yes, BRT is more that sufficient on Sheppard, as even the graphic from the SELRT EA demonstrates.

Yes, I was thinking of a N-S connection. This could either be a temporary (or phase 1) connection since the extension of the Scarborough RT (or LRT as it will be in the future) is not scheduled in this phase of the Eglinton (ECLRT). The EA should be much easier on the railway ROW. Even if this is left in place when the Scarborough RT reaches Malvern, it is still a minimal expense compared to the Sheppard subway and the 4km distance between Kennedy and Markham Road is not unreasonably close.

The people of Sheppard are expecting a subway, the mayor has promised a subway. For political reasons alone, there will probably have to be some extra compensation to this area for them to settle for BRT.

 

[gweed123]

Yes, I was thinking of a N-S connection. This could either be a temporary (or phase 1) connection since the extension of the Scarborough RT (or LRT as it will be in the future) is not scheduled in this phase of the Eglinton (ECLRT). The EA should be much easier on the railway ROW. Even if this is left in place when the Scarborough RT reaches Malvern, it is still a minimal expense compared to the Sheppard subway and the 4km distance between Kennedy and Markham Road is not unreasonably close.

The shortened SLRT plan included an extension up to Sheppard, it wasn't until the Ford plan that that extension was dropped, presumably to fund the tunnelling of Eglinton East. If another option (say, trenched) is adopted for Eglinton East, then those funds can be returned to the SLRT extension.

Personally, I'd be more inclined just to buy a few DMUs (like the ones used for the O-Train) and have those running between Agincourt and Kennedy stations, especially during the SRT revamp. Much cheaper than building an entirely new ROW. The TTC would need to hire and train a few conductors and engineers, but that would pale in comparison to building a completely new ROW.

The people of Sheppard are expecting a subway, the mayor has promised a subway. For political reasons alone, there will probably have to be some extra compensation to this area for them to settle for BRT.

With all due respect to them, they voted for Ford and his mythical subway. They aren't in a position to demand anything. Quite frankly, they should be happy they'd be getting BRT, because that's more than they would have gotten under Ford anyway.

 

[k10ery]

Pretty much, I was under the impression that the Jane LRT and Don Mills LRT were going to operate almost like the streetcars.. I know that parts of the Jane LRT were proposed to go underground..

Mind you I was a fan of TC (Mostly of the Eglinton and Finch lines) -- I just think that it wasn't marketed correctly and as soon as someone brought up "Look at what happened on St. Clair!" that it was going to lose steam.

I thought you might be thinking of Jane. I just looked at the display board for the EA (still on the city website!). Even the consultants couldn't see how Jane LRT was going to work given the narrow right of way. My favourite line BTW: "BRT would not adequately accommodate the forecast peak hour demand of 1,700 – 2,200 passengers (2031) and address other City objectives (i.e. attractive walking and cycling environment). BRT is not the preferred Transit Solution."

Note the grammar: they don't say BRT can't handle 2,000 pph. They just kind of imply it!

In short I agree that Jane and maybe even Don Mills and Sheppard LRT made the whole TC plan seem a bit crazy. ("Jane and Finch" must have been sort of magic names for Miller and his executive committee.) But the crazier elements were never really going to happen. Eglinton and Finch were good plans, and were not streetcars.

 

[gweed123]

To further the points I made a bit earlier, I made a quick map of what I mean. Note that the different colours denote different operating environments, and not different lines (wouldn't make much sense if it did mean lines, haha).

 

[smallspy]

2) That the SLRT and ECLRT remain one continuous through-line, instead of having the SLRT end at Kennedy like in the original Transit City plan. Keeping a linear transfer when you have the opportunity to remove it is just bone-headed.

This in particular I disagree with. The reason why they weren't through-routed to begin with was because the service levels were going to be so different - 2- and 1-car trains on Eglinton and 2- and 3-car trains every 5 minutes or better on the SRT. Eglinton, at least at the extreme east end of the line, won't need close to the same service the SRT will receive.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[gweed123]

This in particular I disagree with. The reason why they weren't through-routed to begin with was because the service levels were going to be so different - 2- and 1-car trains on Eglinton and 2- and 3-car trains every 5 minutes or better on the SRT. Eglinton, at least at the extreme east end of the line, won't need close to the same service the SRT will receive.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

So your solution is to force people to transfer when they reach Kennedy, just because the headways on the two lines will be different? Lines pass through under-used areas all the time. The section of the Spadina Subway along the Allen (Glencairn Station is a perfect example), are some of the lowest used stations on the entire system. Should the Spadina Subway then have a linear transfer at Eglinton West Station?

Heck, even on the SRT, every station besides Kennedy and Scarbrorough Centre has barely any ridership. In fact, the ridership numbers at the stations are probably similar to what we'd see at most Eglinton East stations.

And let's not forget, running more trains (and through trains) on the ECLRT/SLRT reduces the load on the Bloor-Danforth Subway, because a transfer at Kennedy isn't required. This means that subway westbound trains at Kennedy won't be nearly full when they leave, something I'm sure people getting on at stations like Woodbine or Broadview will appreciate.

 

[ibhattac]

could council simply vote to bring back transit city on january 17 and save the city 65 million cancellation fee and the extra 10 million it needs to complete the sheppard research? i mean it would obviously be a huge debate but is it not possible?

nothing is coming back from the dead without a majority of council being persuaded (read: phone calls from resident constituents) to bring it back, and opposition pressure on the mcguinty government. right now, locally, there are too many favours to be had and careers to be made by plugging into the ford campaign machine for future electoral ambitions. and provincially, there are too many careers to be lost by expending effort on saving toronto from itself when surrounding municipalities have (at least in appearance) taken matters into their own hands and have consistently paid for what they can afford (at least in appearance).

while i desperately hope that i am wrong, i have a difficult time believing anyone is going to try to bring back any semblance of transit city. they've even disbanded the transit city unit at ttc if i am not mistaken, so there's also going to have to be a lead time (at least 3 to 6 months given public sector hiring protocols, let alone austerity nonsense) to regroup the expertise at the ttc (or metrolinx). if it were to happen in the public sector, i'm imagining that ministers/councillors will put pressure on senior bureaucrats to bring a team together on zero budget that has been already cut or allocated elsewhere, meaning something else has to be cut. but right now everyone is focused on the panam/parapan games, so i doubt anyone will relocate resources willingly. i don't know how they'd get the transit city budget line without significant pressure from elected officials. and elected officials aren't going to put significant pressure on anyone unless they're convinced it lets them keep their job and/or move up the ladder (see earlier comments about council and cabinet). supposing the transit city revival goes private (with an eye towards handing it over to the air-rail group or the people handling the eglinton lrt build) they have to eoi, rfp, etc which also takes time and now non-existent budget. all this assuming the eas don't need to be updated.

i think the likely outcome of all this is an underground eglinton lrt and then goes aboveground after the don, and that's all. with some creative accounting the extra costs for the lrt could equal the total transit city outlay and that's that. or if there's any money left, they can lump it in with the federal money until chong finds the other 30 kajillion from private donors. that's never going to happen, so it'll work out into a net saving that they can carry over year over year until a change in administration at the various levels of government and then zero it from the budgets.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

So your solution is to force people to transfer when they reach Kennedy, just because the headways on the two lines will be different? Lines pass through under-used areas all the time. The section of the Spadina Subway along the Allen (Glencairn Station is a perfect example), are some of the lowest used stations on the entire system. Should the Spadina Subway then have a linear transfer at Eglinton West Station?

Heck, even on the SRT, every station besides Kennedy and Scarbrorough Centre has barely any ridership. In fact, the ridership numbers at the stations are probably similar to what we'd see at most Eglinton East stations.

And let's not forget, running more trains (and through trains) on the ECLRT/SLRT reduces the load on the Bloor-Danforth Subway, because a transfer at Kennedy isn't required. This means that subway westbound trains at Kennedy won't be nearly full when they leave, something I'm sure people getting on at stations like Woodbine or Broadview will appreciate.

It's funny how people are so willing to accept a forced transfer at one place (Kennedy station, Don Mills Station) and yet the mere mention of it somewhere else (Finch Station, Eglinton LRT) elicit a similar reaction as a loud fart in a quiet library.

 

[BurlOak]

It's funny how people are so willing to accept a forced transfer at one place (Kennedy station, Don Mills Station) and yet the mere mention of it somewhere else (Finch Station, Eglinton LRT) elicit a similar reaction as a loud fart in a quiet library.

Accept a forced transfer at Kennedy Station and Don Mills Station????

The major complaint of people in Scarborough was the forced transfer. From STC to downtonw involved 2 transfers (Kennedy Station and Yonge). The Kennedy one was forced and the other was grudgingly accepted.

The switch from LRT to subway at Don Mills was one of the main complaints about Sheppard LRT.

Ford realized the frustration with these transfers and that is why he went with the ECLRT being continuous. If he could have found a way to eliminate all transfers (except of course bus to subway) he would have done it so that not just Central North Yorkers would have a continuous ride to downtown.

 

[ssiguy2]

TC is dead and it will never return.
There is no way in hell that McGuinty is going to be offering more money and nor should he. He would also be very pissed off that Toronto has come back yet again with a new plan.
Also, as much as TC supporters like to say otherwise, TC has been voted down by the citizens of Toronto. One of the biggest and most vocal battles in the last election was about TC and Ford made it very clear that he was totally against TC and would be the first thing he would get rid of and he did. People knew exactly what he stoof for on the biggest infrastructure project in the city's history and they backed him up.
No new contenders are going to put their political heads on the line for a voted down system especially knowing that McGuinty will be in no mood, or financial position, to add one dime.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

TC will come back

ssiguy do you have a cheaper option? Because I don't know of any. Subways on Sheppard-Finch West, a DRL and Renforth-Highway 2A will cost 25 Billion dollars.

 

[nfitz]

ssiguy do you have a cheaper option?

Oh dear ... I know where this is going ...

 

[GenerationW]

Subways on Sheppard-Finch West, a DRL and Renforth-Highway 2A will cost 25 Billion dollars.

Who exactly proposed all those subways in one plan?

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Who exactly proposed all those subways in one plan?

It was a hyopthetical. That is what I think is needed or adequate to get Toronto moving. Based also off plast plans (Network 2011; Eglinton West, Sheppard, DRL) (RTES) (Transit City)