Transit City Plan

[TransitPolicyChanger]

Curbside BRT? How do private cars access curbside driveways and make right turns? If they use the curb lane then that's not the same as an exclusive ROW.

Politically, centre ROWs upset drivers enough.

Very useful discussion about BRT and LRT here, though.

-ed d.

I agree Sheppard requires nothing more than an expanded express bus service or BRT, but I agree that curbside (in Toronto) wouldn't work. Along Sheppard it would be impossible to isolate the curb bus lane with anything more than a rumble strip due to the number of driveways. This type of system is just waiting to be clogged with traffic that will not be satisfied being stuck in the now reduced two left lanes. Get a few people that don't want to wait for that right turn lane ahead and jump into the bus lane and these lanes will be like any other diamond lane in the city - faster than it not being there, but still pretty slow.

I think pushing the in median BRT, if feasible, does make more sense (vs building an LRT there now or curbside BRT) because we would have complete ROW. But I also agree that during off peak hours, even the in median BRT would be a waste along here. Let's face the facts, the subway is going as far as its going to go on Sheppard for at least 20 years. There is no need to build an extensive network east of Don Mills for some time. I would be in favour of curb side BRT (i guess it would be BRT Lite) basically operating as Bus Only Diamond lanes (similar to Dufferin north of Sheppard).

Subway or in median LRT or in median BRT costs are not justified here. Kill the Sheppard LRT (likely done), kill the Sheppard subway expansion (well did it really have a chance?) and move on to other serious projects that address other areas of the network that are more deserving based on demand.

Everyone favors Sheppard to serve Scarborough, well I still think a BD extension instead of SRT conversion and Sheppard Subway makes more sense provided we can finally allocate some funding and give some thought to another transfer downtown other than at the Yonge or University Lines. (i.e. the much debated DRL)

 

[Ed Drass]

FYI:

Canvass for Finch West LRT: Ward 7 (Mammoliti)
Saturday, March 19 · 1:00pm - 4:00pm

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=141762165889831

BTW: Recent twitter exchange with TTC vice-chair...

@PeterMilczyn on 8 Mar: We will build a Transit system for the next 100 years and beyond. Eglinton, Sheppard, Scarborough RT all moving forward.
@PeterMilczyn: Enhanced Finch service as well. that's Phase 1, Phase 2 could begin at same time as Metrolinx originally hoped for

@eddrass: Is Finch W. the only TTC bus route being considered for "Enhanced" or BRT upgrades? Will public be consulted on network plans?

@PeterMilczyn: I was commenting on Transit City replacement plan for Finch. When plan is ready for publication public will have it's say
@PeterMilczyn: Certainly as much consultation as occurred with Transit City

 

[Ed Drass]

I would be in favour of curb side BRT (i guess it would be BRT Lite) basically operating as Bus Only Diamond lanes (similar to Dufferin north of Sheppard).

Using existing lanes? Hardly seems worth the cost to widen Sheppard for BRT lite. -ed

 

[gweed123]

Curbside BRT? How do private cars access curbside driveways and make right turns? If they use the curb lane then that's not the same as an exclusive ROW.

Politically, centre ROWs upset drivers enough.

Very useful discussion about BRT and LRT here, though.

-ed d.

The curbside lane is literally just a bus-only lane with a solid line painted on the road. I've attached a Google Streetview image of Woodroffe just south of Meadowlands, looking north. You can see how the solid line becomes dashed in order for drivers to cross the bus lane to get to the right turn lane.

FYI: The vacant land of the left side of the image is the ROW that has been saved for the grade-separated Transitway upgrade, when traffic warrants it.

 

[TransitPolicyChanger]

The curbside lane is literally just a bus-only lane with a solid line painted on the road. I've attached a Google Streetview image of Woodroffe just south of Meadowlands, looking north. You can see how the solid line becomes dashed in order for drivers to cross the bus lane to get to the right turn lane.

FYI: The vacant land of the left side of the image is the ROW that has been saved for the grade-separated Transitway upgrade, when traffic warrants it.

As I said, probably the best option for Sheppard, I just fear abuse of the lanes and turning traffic will slow operations.

 

[gweed123]

As I said, probably the best option for Sheppard, I just fear abuse of the lanes and turning traffic will slow operations.

Hasn't impacted the flow in Ottawa at all. I have yet to see someone driving in the bus-only lane, except for cutting through it to make a right turn (which is allowed at the section a bit further up in the photo where the solid line becomes dashed). They have signs posted above the lane saying it's a $150 fine if you're caught driving in it. As far as I've seen, people do a good job obeying that. But yes, the cost of doing this upgrade (I believe it was done in the late 90s, early 2000s) was the same cost as widening a road for general traffic use. Pretty much the least expensive form of transit upgrade involving new infrastructure that you can get, aside from just queue jump lanes. Oh, I forgot to mention, the lanes also have dedicated traffic lights, which if, when a bus is stopped there, become green for about 10 seconds before the left-turn movement starts for the cars turning off Woodroffe (amounts to about a 15 second head start on the vehicles waiting to go straight).

 

[nfitz]

As I said, probably the best option for Sheppard, I just fear abuse of the lanes and turning traffic will slow operations.

Lane abuse doesn't seem that bad on Don Mills Road (there's always a few, but the lane moves much better than the other 2 lanes). I'd think it would work as well on Sheppard.

 

[Thoughtless Miscreant]

And if you can't understand how braindead amputating the Sheppard subway with an LRT attached to it is, then just....wow.

You say this as if it's self-evident but I can't see what's so "braindead" about not extending a subway we don't actually need.

The only argument I've ever heard that kind of makes sense is that people don't like the transfer, but the planned arrangement at Don Mills had the LRVs literally arriving ON the subway platform, providing what would have been the single least painful transfer in the entire system.

The corridor is much more suited to LRT or BRT, and it's senseless to ignore that just because we already built 5 and a half km of something else.

 

[gweed123]

Lane abuse doesn't seem that bad on Don Mills Road (there's always a few, but the lane moves much better than the other 2 lanes). I'd think it would work as well on Sheppard.

Yeah. Maybe do a policing blitz there the first week that it's open, just to get the message out, and then I think it would be fine.

I think Sheppard would be a good guinea pig for this type of implementation in Toronto. If the road widening project comes in on-budget, at a reasonable cost, and people see noticable improvements in travel times, I think a lot more people will start wanting these lanes on their major arterials. And because they're relatively cheap and easy to implement (it's pretty much just a road widening, which happens all the time), they can be seen by a lot of politicians as 'quick wins' for their ward. Curbside BRT projects are one of the few transit infrastructure projects that can be completed with one election cycle, something that in the world of politics is golden. To be able to say to your consituents "you asked for better bus service on *pick an avenue*, and I delivered within 1 term".

If the ridership on these corridors grows to the point where LRT is required, then it's not like you pissed away money, because the road widening is already done for you. You simply repaint the BRT lanes are regular lanes, and replace the middle two lanes with an LRT ROW. And if you redesign the intersections with LRT in mind, you won't have to make significant modifications to the layout of those either.

 

[kEiThZ]

BRT is the best option for Sheppard at this stage of the game. It's cheap. Provides immediate relief. And does not take any option off the table in the future.

As for the argument that there's no room....once again, they are letting portions of Sheppard East dictate requirements for the whole corridor. Sheppard East is plenty wide east of Agincourt.

Hopefully, this finally compels them towards incremental subway expansion. Get the subway to Agincourt and you've cured the problems for the densest part of Sheppard East. After that, there's really no need for anything more than BRT to Meadowvale. And that will never change. From Agincourt, the subway can take a decade or more to go to STC if they want. The reality is that as nice as it would be to do this, taking the BD line to STC is a far higher priority and would accomplish much more than taking Sheppard East to STC. That said, having Sheppard East penetrate somewhat into Scarborough would do a lot to facilitate East-West travel across northern Toronto.

 

[kEiThZ]

Yeah. Maybe do a policing blitz there the first week that it's open, just to get the message out, and then I think it would be fine.

It works on Eglinton now. And that avenue is a lot busier than Sheppard East. Why would anything be different in Scarborough?

That said, the reason it works so well in Ottawa is because the police do enforce the rules and they are particularly tough for infractions during rush hour. That's how it should be.

If Toronto pulls this off, I am willing to bet that this will become quite popular. We'll see this "BRT-Lite" on Finch and Steeles for sure and maybe even some north-south avenues.

 

[Electrify]

Good thinking outside the box. Some comments:

1) I think 500m is a bit too far north. I think the ideal distance north would be only a bit further than the B-D subway is north of the street. Just far enough north that you can fit a row of condos in between the elevated guideway and Sheppard. North of the guideway, place mid-rise residential so that it not only provides a buffer for the existing community, but also a transition from higher densities to lower densities.

Thanks for the compliment

The main reason why I suggested so far north is because immediately north (and south) of Sheppard there are a number of apartment buildings, which are far more difficult to expropriate and displace far more people as well. By going a little bit north you can bypass a lot of that and can keep the line on the surface longer.

 

[accura407]

I agree with the comments here...

Widen Sheppard Avenue from Pharmacy to Markham Road then to Morningside afterwards.

Paint the third lane as Bus only.

I know that the lanes on Dufferin work well, VERY WELL actually... If it was a bit more enforced, it would be even better...

I also think Markham road is another good corridor that can have bus lanes from Kingston Road till Sheppard.

Then repaint Eglinton and Don Mills lanes to bus only and what you have is a "Golden Quadrilateral" around Eastern Toronto...

Sheppard on the north, Eglinton on the south, Don Mills in the west, Markham in the east.

I think such a solid corridor around scarborough would make major improvements in Scarborough!

 

[kEiThZ]

@accura407.

There's no need to phase anything. You could get the bus lanes built all the way to Meadowvale in a year.

 

[jje1000]

When do you think that Ford and Metrolinx will release their full revised plans? They were supposed to be out by February.

I wouldn't be too surprised if a plan were released during the election period or even afterwards.