Thoughtless Miscreant
Active Member
Not in a million years could anyone come up with a worse idea than this.
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Transit City Plan
- Thread starter 299 bloor call control.
- Start date
Not in a million years could anyone come up with a worse idea than this.
Electrify
Senior Member
Okay, so you brainstorm a better way to extend the Sheppard line without expensive tunneling genius.
I think that any heavy rail conversion needs to be looked at as an investment. Sure, you can argue that we spend x million and not see a single new kilometer of new transit, but it can also mean that future extensions become much more affordable. Theoretically speaking, if we converted our entire heavy rail network into monorail, extending or even creating new rapid transit (aka: 100% grade separated) could become much easier and less controversial. Even if we converted it to light rail, we could expand our network at-grade and create a "semi" rapid transit network like they have in Calgary (NOT like Transit City!).
If we were to go with monorail, the good news is that since our subway is high floored, the stations themselves would need minimal renovations. This picture of Tokyo's monorail (I believe) illustrates what I'm talking about:
The bad news is that the straddle design is not fully equipped for our winters. Moscow is the only place I am aware of which has a straddle transit monorail, and it could pose a safety concern:
The good news is that there is a suspended monorail where the running surfaces are covered, so that this problem (not to mention other problems caused by standard rail in winter weather) are avoided. However, retrofitting our subway would become far more difficult. Here are some GSV images of one from Chiba, Japan:
http://goo.gl/maps/ZsGi
http://goo.gl/maps/dwOd
http://goo.gl/maps/STVe
http://goo.gl/maps/gzB2
Interesting picture with the snow there. However, if there are trains running every ~5 minutes, will there really be that much of a chance for snow to pile up? The only time I could really see it being a concern is for the first train in the morning after the line has been shut down overnight.
If the conversion would cost less than the difference in doing the extension by subway compared to monorail, I'd say it would be something worth investigating. However, I don't think Toronto needs another orphan technology.
I think Toronto's best chance of doing elevated is to do it above existing rail tracks. That way there's a defined ROW, and it's less likely to piss off the neighbours.
I'd say designing a transit master plan around feeding new passengers onto an already overcrowded backbone subway network without even examining how (or even IF) that network is going to be able to handle the increased load, ranks pretty high up on that list as well.
Thoughtless Miscreant
Active Member
It's a little master plan I call "Don't extend the Sheppard line in the first place because it's not actually required for the projected ridership."
Crazy, I know.
Transit City may have its flaws but it isn't even in the same bad idea universe as converting 60km of perfectly good subway to monorail.
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Electrify
Senior Member
Been doing some more browsing, and have found that the Netherlands has done a pretty good job fitting in elevated rail in an urban setting, all while keeping things somewhat aesthetic.
http://goo.gl/maps/rDrn
http://goo.gl/maps/rGdX
http://goo.gl/maps/rDrn
http://goo.gl/maps/rGdX
Since when is the Sheppard subway 60km long???
Electrify
Senior Member
Well, I did suggest THEORETICALLY that we COULD do it with all of our subways as to make any future extensions elevated thus more affordable and less bulky. Not something I'm pressing on though, really just brainstorming.
TransitPolicyChanger
Active Member
I think the main point would be that in Toronto, given the existing infrastructure, it is simply not possible. We wouldn't do it for the entire network or even for Sheppard.
This debate seems irrelevant to the overall problem of why we are building that line in the first place, other than to complete a line for the sake of completing it.
This debate seems irrelevant to the overall problem of why we are building that line in the first place, other than to complete a line for the sake of completing it.
TransitPolicyChanger
Active Member
Been doing some more browsing, and have found that the Netherlands has done a pretty good job fitting in elevated rail in an urban setting, all while keeping things somewhat aesthetic.
http://goo.gl/maps/rDrn
http://goo.gl/maps/rGdX
Looks like an elevated LRT line ... that might not make some people happy, haha
http://goo.gl/maps/rDrn
http://goo.gl/maps/rGdX
Looks like an elevated LRT line ... that might not make some people happy, haha
Thoughtless Miscreant
Active Member
Since when is the Sheppard subway "our entire heavy rail network"?
The discussion was mainly centred around Sheppard:
"Of course, we COULD convert the current Sheppard line to monorail, that would be the best case elevated:
Las Vegas: http://goo.gl/maps/Acyj"
I agree converting the entire system would be pointless, but there may be a case made for doing it on Sheppard, especially if it means the extension will be 1/3 the cost.
TransitPolicyChanger
Active Member
As misguided as it may seem, i think the reference was that if we did this for one line, we should do it for all our lines so that extended the line elevated would be easier. That's how I read it, not that I think it makes any sense.
Dan416
Senior Member
The options for Sheppard, in order of my preference are:
1. Finish the damn thing. Yes, just for completion's sake. I hate leaving things unfinished.
2. Do nothing. If there's no demand on Sheppard, as some say, then there is no reason to build an LRT.
3. BRT.
4. The brain dead idea to build an LRT on Sheppard East, resulting in three transit modes and 4 transfers for someone wanting to go from STC to York University (bus from STC to Sheppard East LRT, transfer to Sheppard Subway, transfer to bus again at Yonge-Sheppard, transfer to Spadina subway, and depending if it's built by then or not, either taking the bus from Downsview or taking the subway to York U).
1. Finish the damn thing. Yes, just for completion's sake. I hate leaving things unfinished.
2. Do nothing. If there's no demand on Sheppard, as some say, then there is no reason to build an LRT.
3. BRT.
4. The brain dead idea to build an LRT on Sheppard East, resulting in three transit modes and 4 transfers for someone wanting to go from STC to York University (bus from STC to Sheppard East LRT, transfer to Sheppard Subway, transfer to bus again at Yonge-Sheppard, transfer to Spadina subway, and depending if it's built by then or not, either taking the bus from Downsview or taking the subway to York U).
jeffreym
Active Member
1. So we have limited money, but we should spend it on the Sheppard Subway because you hate leaving things unfinished?
2. Well obviously there's demand on Sheppard - there's demand on Steeles and on Lawrence and on Finch and on Keele and on pretty much every street in Toronto - the question is how much demand. If you can't understand that there is a difference between 3000 ppl/hr and 10000/hr... wow
4. 199 Finch Rocket to Finch Stn, Finch LRT to Spadina Line, Spadina Line to YorkU Stn