Transit City Plan

[LNahid2000]

He also promises to remove Coxwell station from the Bloor-Danforth line.

 

[accura407]

Great Article posted earlier! The most important note took out of it was... $35 million for Bessarion Station!

So where does this idiotic exaggerated claim for 200-300 million per station come from? I mean is the government telling us that a basic station cost has quadropled in just a decade???

Anyone also notice that the most complex and expensive station on that line is only $115 million! Yonge-Sheppard! These figures sound a lot more in line with the Canada Line construction that happened in Vancouver...(Notice I use examples within our nation, not in a labour cheap nation)

I mean, sheppard is an awesome deal if you compare it to the outrageous cost estimates that we are thrown today! 5.5km for 950 million? That's approx 150mil/km... Which is what today they estimate what a basic plain vanilla LRT costs!

I smell a conspiracy here now! Overexaggeration of subway costs to scare away the public from building them! Surely I understand there is inflation but the numbers being quoted today are just ludacris!

After reading that article, I am actually fully in support of the subway extension now because I KNOW there is no way it should cost 4.1 billion dollars unless its being built bu the mafia!

 

[gweed123]

On Sheppard East, I think you pretty much have to build all the stations when the line opens. Presumably there would be stations at Consumers, Victoria Park, Warden, Birchmount and Agincourt GO station before the line dips down to Scarborough Centre. Consumers is the only midblock station here and there is sufficient existing density to build it when the line opens; Pharmacy would almost certainly be omitted because it is too close to Victoria Park. Some of the maps of the proposal omit a station at Birchmount, but I think that this station really needs to be included because there is quite a bit of existing density at this station, and there is a major bus route (17 Birchmount) here.

On Sheppard West this approach might make some sense. There are two obvious locations for midblock stations at Faywood and Senlac, neither of these have a whole lot of density yet. Both have bus transfers to the 104 Faywood and 98 Willowdale-Senlac, but the former is a minor route and the latter is a very minor route.

Also, the city could consider building an infill station at Willowdale (there is provision for a station here).

Agreed. Sheppard East is somewhat unique in this city because the N-S arterials are much closer together than in the west end. This makes it hard to have 'minor' mid-block stations. I do agree Sheppard West would be a great candidate for that though.

 

[gweed123]

Ford promised an in-fill station at Willowdale during his election campaign - between Bayview and Bessarion.

A-mazing, lol.

 

[CapitalSeven]

Perhaps his worship can figure out a way to move Coxwell up to Willowdale to save money.

 

[Thoughtless Miscreant]

On Sheppard East, I think you pretty much have to build all the stations when the line opens. Presumably there would be stations at Consumers, Victoria Park, Warden, Birchmount and Agincourt GO station before the line dips down to Scarborough Centre. Consumers is the only midblock station here and there is sufficient existing density to build it when the line opens; Pharmacy would almost certainly be omitted because it is too close to Victoria Park. Some of the maps of the proposal omit a station at Birchmount, but I think that this station really needs to be included because there is quite a bit of existing density at this station, and there is a major bus route (17 Birchmount) here.

On Sheppard West this approach might make some sense. There are two obvious locations for midblock stations at Faywood and Senlac, neither of these have a whole lot of density yet. Both have bus transfers to the 104 Faywood and 98 Willowdale-Senlac, but the former is a minor route and the latter is a very minor route.

Also, the city could consider building an infill station at Willowdale (there is provision for a station here).

As far as I know ALL the proposals for the Sheppard Subway omit Birchmount station. IMO that is a huge mistake.

 

[nfitz]

Great Article posted earlier! The most important note took out of it was... $35 million for Bessarion Station!

So where does this idiotic exaggerated claim for 200-300 million per station come from? I mean is the government telling us that a basic station cost has quadropled in just a decade???

They haven't quadrupled - as you note, Yonge-Sheppard is $115 million.

But inflation has near doubled in 10 years. You only have to look at a CPI (Construction Price Index) to see that. Sheppard started construction in around 1997 with opening in 2002. Spadina started around 2010 with opening in 2015. That's a lot of inflation - 13-years worth. Projects opening after 2015 will cost even more.

 

[accura407]

Yes they have quadroopled...if Bessarion was 35 million but now stations average 200-300 million then yes it has quadroopled!

Of all the transit plans in place, only Yonge & Eglinton, Allen Rd & Eglinton, and Allen Rd & Sheppard can be compared with something as complex as Yonge & Sheppard!

So don't use the template for one expensive interchange as the cost for every other basic station along the line! That's like Apples to Oranges!

 

[rbt]

Yes they have quadroopled...if Bessarion was 35 million but now stations average 200-300 million then yes it has quadroopled!

You have misread. Bessarion Station cost $35M to construct the box (dig down, pour walls/floor, etc.)

That doesn't include any preparation (land acquisitions, utility movements, etc.).

It does not include design, tunnels in or out of the stations, turnback, crossovers, storage track pieces which today tend to be tendered with the station (Bessarion doesn't have any IIRC).

It also does not include any equipment in the station like fare gates, vending machines (if any: $100k each! thanks IBM), electrical substation, security cameras, etc.

Bessarion, if you will recall, does not have an integrated transfer point (no buses: this can add tens of millions by itself).


Average total cost for stations on Sheppard, excluding Yonge station which was larger and more complicated, was about $80M each.


FYI, that $160M for Union's second platform was only the construction bit too though it included most of the guts (finishes). Actual cost is closer to $200M for the second platform project from start (terms of reference for the EA) to the end.

 

[accura407]

Oh I see...but even @ 80 million per station, I don't understand how prices can skyrocket in just 10 years

I blame the estiamtes on the grand central size stations being built on the spadina extension... A basic bessarion style station surely shouldn't be more than 125 million today...

Its time to go back to the basics, let's put our grand station designs aside for the only line worthy of such grand scale, the DRL

 

[nfitz]

Oh I see...but even @ 80 million per station, I don't understand how prices can skyrocket in just 10 years

Construction inflation. Primarily the cost of steel, rock, and oil (to ship and process the steel and rock).

You haven't noticed how much the price of these things has increased? Have you filled your gas tank recently? How much has it increased in 13 years? Have you ordered a load of concrete lately?

I blame the estiamtes on the grand central size stations being built on the spadina extension... A basic bessarion style station surely shouldn't be more than 125 million today...

Yet in other threads we've had people go on and on and on and on about the overbuilt stations like Bessarion and Leslie (which they aren't ... it's not expensive to not fill in the hole you've had to dig ...). The Spadina extensions aren't particularily large. The footprints are pretty normal .. there is some fluff ... but it's pretty minor compared to the cost of the entire station. Remember that some here keep pointing to Montreal subway stations being so much cheaper ... and yet they are far more grand and overbuilt than any we've ever constructed. Can't have it both ways.

 

[Thoughtless Miscreant]

People call Bessarion overbuilt? It's literally the minimum you would want to have for a station without a bus transfer.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Ford’s transit plan shortchanges suburbs, critics charge


Mar 07 2011

By Tess Kalinowski

Read More: http://www.thestar.com/news/transpo...ging-suburbs-with-transit-plan-critics-charge


Mayor Rob Ford’s transportation plan cheats Toronto’s suburbs of their fair share of $8.7 billion in provincial transit funds, according to the Toronto Environmental Alliance. TEA, which supports an older transit plan, says Ford’s underground proposal will mean less transit, to fewer riders. Only 217,000 commuters would benefit from light rail under Ford’s plan, which is still being considered by Metrolinx, the provincial agency that approves transit funding. That compares with about 460,000 commuters who could have accessed light rail under the old plan, which Ford has declared dead. TEA’s ridership numbers are based on the population living or working within 500 metres of the proposed light rail lines.

The “compromise†Ford plan, which calls for the entire Eglinton light rail line to be tunneled from Jane St. to the Kennedy subway station, is also more expensive, argues TEA. Its report, issued Monday, compares only the light rail covered by the $8.7 billion pledged by the province. TEA hasn’t included ridership on Ford’s proposed Sheppard subway extensions or any increase from more buses on Finch Ave. because neither accounts for any of the $8.7 billion in provincial funding. “There’s been a lot of skepticism of the mayor’s plan because there isn’t a plan yet,†said TEA spokesman Jamie Kirkpatrick.

.....

 

[Ed Drass]

Just tweeted this, aimed at TTC vice-chair, who has let out a few hints on the future of Finch West transit:

@PeterMilczyn Is Finch W. the only TTC bus route being considered for "Enhanced" or BRT upgrades? Will public be consulted on network plans?

--
-Obviously, my agendas include determining if there is real network planning going on -- beyond the kill-Transit-City obsession, and when we might get some formal debate on the city-wide impact of the Fords' transport agenda.

-ed

 

[DavidH]

People call Bessarion overbuilt? It's literally the minimum you would want to have for a station without a bus transfer.

It's overbuilt in the sense that it exists.