Transit City Plan

[Amy Rose]

You could make that argument for any transit project in the city - the Eglinton line is a waste of money when we could just make it a transit only street, right? The reality is that rapid transit is needed east-west through downtown, and it's way more necessary than Eglinton or any other Transit City line. You can't satisfy that demand by just improving streetcars. Only high capacity rapid transit is good enough, and that can't be accomodated at street level in a dense urban setting. Ottawa has found that out the hard way and Calgary is finding out the same thing. It has nothing to do with not wanting to take car lanes away - let's not oppose proper rapid transit just to oppose Rob Ford. Any form of at grade transit stopped being adequate for the DRL corridor a long time ago.


The DRL is the perfect candidate for a public-private partnership. Much more likely to succeed than Sheppard.

So from what you are saying is that 4-6 car LRVs can't do the same if not better job than a subway?

 

[GraphicMatt]

I think someone else mentioned that Eglinton is actually a better option (than Sheppard) to build through a P3, and I think they're right.

I'd agree with that, but even then there's no way you could get the private sector to fund all of Eglinton either. To do a large scale transit project without significant public investment is a total pipe dream.

 

[Dan416]

I'd agree with that, but even then there's no way you could get the private sector to fund all of Eglinton either. To do a large scale transit project without significant public investment is a total pipe dream.

I think you may be right.

 

[MisterF]

That is the difference between necessity and a want.

You need to eat. We need to move larger numbers of people for economic reasons.

We want a steak with with mushrooms on it and not oatmeal with a small bit of chard sliced into it.

We want to maintain existing space for cars while expanding transit. We want transit to be in a tunnel we don't *need* it to be.


We have chosen to spend $7B on Eglinton to increase capacity of the corridor without removing space from low capacity private vehicles. Should we do this? Yes. Is it necessary that we do this? No. It is a choice. It is a want. It is not a necessity to accomplishing the goal of increasing carrying capacity of the street.

We can easily build a surface route on Eglinton using gate arms at all intersections which would be able to carry 45000 persons per hour if we chose to take that approach. Are there consequences of doing that? You betcha! We choose to spend more to avoid the consequences. It's a choice, not a necessity.

We want transit but we don't really need it. We want paved roads but we don't really need them. We want electricity but....

A surface route on Eglinton using gate arms at intersections makes perfect sense in the more suburban parts, just like it works fine in Edmonton. But try to picture that setup through the central, much more urban part of the street. It would be hugely disruptive! And even then you'd have pedestrians and cars getting in the way of trains that just doesn't happen underground. It would be even worse on a street like Queen. That's exactly why subways were created in the first place, and why LRT systems are built in tunnels in the downtown sections of cities around the world. And again, it has absolutely nothing to do with taking space away from private vehicles per se. But having at least some car traffic helps bring security to a street so it doesn't become eerily quiet late at night. A transit mall that bans cars altogether can work but usually when it's tried it ends up killing the street...and even when it works it's not a substitute for rapid transit.

So from what you are saying is that 4-6 car LRVs can't do the same if not better job than a subway?

Capacity wise? No. Mind you the lines can be blurred between subway and LRT - Madrid's trains are no bigger than a 6 car LRV. But no LRV carries as many people as the subway trains Toronto uses. An underground LRT would be just as good as a subway on Eglinton but wouldn't have enough capacity for a DRL.

 

[gweed123]

I wonder if last week's announcement by the Ford camp will have any effect on the timeline of Metrolinx's new plan. Given that Ford seems to have conceded on Eglinton (and done the equivalent of a kid going "oh yeah? well fine then, I'll just do my own thing by myself over here"), hopefully we can get to see the new plan shortly, to lay all this speculation to rest.

 

[ladyscraper]

Given that Ford seems to have conceded on Eglinton (and done the equivalent of a kid going "oh yeah? well fine then, I'll just do my own thing by myself over here"), hopefully we can get to see the new plan shortly, to lay all this speculation to rest.

I am still confused on what has been conceded or changed.. so in the original plan Eglinton was to run cross town and be partly buried with the rest on the surface, is that right? Is that still the plan or did Ford ask them to bury the entire length of track from Kipling to Scarborough? It's becoming difficult to keep up with the transit goings-on.

 

[GraphicMatt]

Currently on the table, as far as I can tell:

- Eglinton LRT, underground the whole way from Keele to Kennedy - provincially funded
- SRT replaced with LRT on existing alignment, may potentially see through-service from Eglinton. (So you could get on an Eglinton train at Keele and take it all the way to Scarborough Town Centre) - provincially funded
- Sheppard subway from Downsview to Scarborough Town Centre - privately/city funded
- "Enhanced bus service" on Finch, which some have taken to mean BRT but that's unlikely - not sure if any provincial money would go to this.

 

[caltrane74]

Eglinton is underground to Jane, not Keele.

At least from the updated news reports I've seen.

 

[GraphicMatt]

Ah, you're right. Thanks for catching that.

 

[nfitz]

That seems to be the City offer to the province. There's been no indication that the province will accept this. Metrolinx board wanted to know when City Council will approve this plan ... presumably Metrolinx would be making a counter-offer to the city ... as Finch West seems to be an issue.

The whole plan is insane ... instead of an 8-billion 4-line plan, we have a 13-billion plan that only does 2.5 lines. For 13-billion we could do the original plan, finish Finch West to Yonge, Sheppard East to the Zoo, Eglinton to Pearson, SRT to Malvern, and still be able to build most of the Don Mills LRT, Jane LRT, Scarborough-Malvern, and Waterfront West (or instead of the other 4 Transit City lines, build most of the DRL from Pape to Dundas West).

Sheppard East subway past Victoria Park has to be the biggest gravy train ever in Toronto. It's so fiscally irresponsible, I'm surprised the Conservatives on council haven't freaked yet.

Ford's appetite for wasting taxpayers money knows no bounds.

 

[GraphicMatt]

I think the plan is pretty well a done deal, actually, though council is a big question mark.

The five billion for Sheppard is essentially imaginary money, so whatever. The big waste comes from burying the eastern part of the Eglinton line - completely unnecessary waste of funds that could be going to Finch or other improvements.

 

[gweed123]

Currently on the table, as far as I can tell:

- Eglinton LRT, underground the whole way from Keele to Kennedy - provincially funded
- SRT replaced with LRT on existing alignment, may potentially see through-service from Eglinton. (So you could get on an Eglinton train at Keele and take it all the way to Scarborough Town Centre) - provincially funded
- Sheppard subway from Downsview to Scarborough Town Centre - privately/city funded
- "Enhanced bus service" on Finch, which some have taken to mean BRT but that's unlikely - not sure if any provincial money would go to this.

Do you think Eglinton will be underground east of Don Mills? They may propose some sort of elevated structure instead. I don't think Metrolinx is as opposed to elevated as the TTC is. We'll see I guess.

Otherwise though, I agree with your analysis.

 

[EnviroTO]

I don't think Metrolinx is as opposed to elevated as the TTC is.

Metrolinx is fine with it at grade in the middle of the street. It is going underground only because Ford wants everything underground.

 

[gweed123]

I think the plan is pretty well a done deal, actually, though council is a big question mark.

The five billion for Sheppard is essentially imaginary money, so whatever. The big waste comes from burying the eastern part of the Eglinton line - completely unnecessary waste of funds that could be going to Finch or other improvements.

Yeah, I see this as kinda two plans happening simultaneously. The province has their rational, funded, and near shovel-ready plan, and Ford has his private sector pipe dream. Yes, it is kinda unfortunate that Scarborough had to get shafted in order for this to happen (not that the SELRT was a good plan to begin with), but hey, Scarborough was a hotbed of Ford support. So, in that light, they deserve everything they're going to get, which is absolutely nothing.

So don't fear nfitz, because Ford's subway plan has about as much of a likelihood of happening in this decade as the DRL. In fact, I think we'd see a DRL before we see a privately funded complete Sheppard subway. And it's not like the money is being flushed down the drain, it's going to completing a much more important transit project from end to end.

And I still think Metrolinx is going to come up with something else other than burying the Eglinton line east of Don Mills. I agree it doesn't make much financial sense to bury it, which is why I think they're going to elevate it. They've studied elevated in Vancouver, I think they figure they can make it work for Toronto.

Realistically though, this plan is one of the best possible outcomes for Toronto. It gets rid of the "in-median LRT everywhere" mentality, it creates a continuous crosstown line that will benefit the entire city, it maximizes existing work to ensure that only minor delays will happen, and it gives Ford a place to play with his Tonka trucks while the big boys actually get something done.

 

[gweed123]

Metrolinx is fine with it at grade in the middle of the street. It is going underground only because Ford wants everything underground.

They may be fine with it, but they don't fetishize it like the TTC does. They know where it's appropriate, and where it isn't.

And I don't think when Ford says "underground" that he actually means "in a tunnel", I think he just means "as long as it doesn't get in the way of my SUV". In which case, elevated does the trick as well.