Transit City Plan

[jje1000]

However, as a counterpoint, both maps are correct in the fact that these are lines that are part of official transit plans. Whether they are funded or not is another question.

As much as you'd like to think, Ford's plan does not mention Eglinton nor does it support other lines like the DRL.

 

[GraphicMatt]

I have numerous quibbles with the graphic from the perspective of a transit nerd, but it is very effective in pointing out that the two subway extensions to Scarborough Town Centre do represent the sum total of his transit plan for this city. He's been very clear over the past few weeks that he is not open to compromise, either.

 

[spider]

The point is about serving these people better. Moving them faster to where they want to go inherently boosts productivity, leading to higher economic returns.

Moving people more quickly to and from their place of employment may enhance their home/family life but has no bearing whatsoever on productivity or economic returns to the city or anyone else.

LRT and subways generate development along their corridors, leading to better neighbourhoods and a more beautiful city.

A lovely thought but there is no evidence to support it, neighbourhoods served by transit for as much as 100 years are still as drab and colourless as the day they were built. Transit of any description is not a city builder or developer, it is a utility.

 

[GraphicMatt]

You don't believe there's any connection between an employee having a happy home/family life and their productivity in the workplace?

Do you operate a nineteenth century factory?

 

[rbt]

You don't believe there's any connection between an employee having a happy home/family life and their productivity in the workplace?

Do you operate a nineteenth century factory?

Indeed. There is a very strong, well proven, correlation between employee happiness (both at home and in the workplace) and their productivity.

 

[Thoughtless Miscreant]

It's misleading because it isn't an apples-to-apples comparison. It shows unfunded LRT lines like WWLRT and FWLRT and the portions of the Eglinton LRT that were already cut. Ooh, look, I can draw lines on a map too!

It also shows unfunded subway lines though.

 

[superman]

I have numerous quibbles with the graphic from the perspective of a transit nerd, but it is very effective in pointing out that the two subway extensions to Scarborough Town Centre do represent the sum total of his transit plan for this city. He's been very clear over the past few weeks that he is not open to compromise, either.

I think we should hold off a few weeks before passing judgment. I think he's trying to show that he's not open to compromise right now (like how the Transit City advocates won't open to compromise) in order to have more bargaining power to get more underground/elevated.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Take a walk along all the subway lines in person which will take you a few months to do and see what is on the surface that support these subway lines today.

You cannot take a walking tour of the Spadina Line as it in the middle of a highway, but take a walking tour of the area around the stations to see what there and it not nice.

Danforth has never recover since the streetcars were removed in 1966 for the subway. Parts of Bloor has seen recovery.

North York Centre which never had a station built for it in the first place when the line was built, sees close to 25,000 riders daily while other stations on all the lines see less than 10,000.

Just what would a recovered Danforth look like? It's one of the premiere business districts in the city...

 

[nfitz]

It's misleading because it isn't an apples-to-apples comparison. It shows unfunded LRT lines like WWLRT and FWLRT and the portions of the Eglinton LRT that were already cut. Ooh, look, I can draw lines on a map too!

It shows the entire Transit City plan versus the entire Rob Ford plan (demonstrating the lack of fore-thinking Ford has). It shows the entire plan the Ontario government has approved and what Ford wants to build instead.

It's a perfect apples-to-apples comparison. And demonstrates just how daft Fords plan and it's proponents are.

 

[SimonP]

Just what would a recovered Danforth look like? It's one of the premiere business districts in the city...

I imagine he means Danforth east of Greenwood, which went from being a vibrant urban community to one fo the sadder commercial strips in the city after the construction of the subway.

 

[EnviroTO]

Ok, what??? All he was referring to is the capital cost of BUILDING LRT vs BRT. BRT is less expensive to build than LRT. Period.

I have no doubt that BRT has been built at a cost higher than the St.Clair line. There is not a cut and dry price. The O-Train costed $21M ($2.7M/km). One of the south american BRTs with platform doors would be more expensive per km than St.Clair. It all depends on what you are building, how many will be served, etc. The largest costs of a transit system are energy and staff. If you run a whole bunch of buses versus run an automated rail vehicle you will not necessarily have saved money.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I have no doubt that BRT has been built at a cost higher than the St.Clair line. There is not a cut and dry price. The O-Train costed $21M ($2.7M/km). One of the south american BRTs with platform doors would be more expensive per km than St.Clair. It all depends on what you are building, how many will be served, etc. The largest costs of a transit system are energy and staff. If you run a whole bunch of buses versus run an automated rail vehicle you will not necessarily have saved money.

To clarify, multi-car trains of one, two, or three low-floor light rail vehicles are initially planned for Transit City. Drivers are the most expensive expense for the TTC, having one driver on the whole train would be a saving. Plus the Eglinton Crosstown is planned for automated train operation in the underground subway portion, no driver needed.

 

[gweed123]

I have no doubt that BRT has been built at a cost higher than the St.Clair line. There is not a cut and dry price. The O-Train costed $21M ($2.7M/km). One of the south american BRTs with platform doors would be more expensive per km than St.Clair. It all depends on what you are building, how many will be served, etc. The largest costs of a transit system are energy and staff. If you run a whole bunch of buses versus run an automated rail vehicle you will not necessarily have saved money.

First off, the O-Train is NOT a valid example, not even close. The tracks were already there, all they did was buy rolling stock and put down some asphalt to make platforms. And what you're comparing is a Cadillac BRT (with platform doors, etc), to a line that is an in-median STREETCAR line. I don't think those are really fair comparisons to make.

If you're looking for an accurate comparison, look at the projections for the City of Ottawa's supplementary transit plans. They're looking at doing BRT lanes on Baseline Rd, and in-median LRT along Carling Ave, both pretty comparable suburban arterials:

Baseline BRT (Baseline Stn to Billings Bridge Stn): 7.4km, $90M = $12.16M/km

Carling LRT (Lincoln Fields Stn to Carling Stn): 6.75km, $250M/km = $37.04M/km

Source: http://ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/trc/2008/11-10/Document 1 - Supplementary Corridors.pdf

Same city. Same plan. Same factors built into the cost estimate (ie the cost estimates weren't done at different times). Comparable corridors. Yet the BRT costs 1/3 as much as the LRT. So next time, if you're going to compare BRT vs LRT projects, at least find projects that are comparable. Don't quote a high-end BRT project and about as low-end of an LRT project you can get, and then say "Look! The LRT costs less!".

 

[gweed123]

To clarify, multi-car trains of one, two, or three low-floor light rail vehicles are initially planned for Transit City. Drivers are the most expensive expense for the TTC, having one driver on the whole train would be a saving. Plus the Eglinton Crosstown is planned for automated train operation in the underground subway portion, no driver needed.

Drivers will still be needed. They just won't driving. They'll be making sure the doors are clear, and act as an emergency override, etc.

 

[Dan416]

It shows the entire Transit City plan versus the entire Rob Ford plan (demonstrating the lack of fore-thinking Ford has). It shows the entire plan the Ontario government has approved and what Ford wants to build instead.

It's a perfect apples-to-apples comparison. And demonstrates just how daft Fords plan and it's proponents are.

What's the point in showing lines that have already been cut? It's completely misleading.

That said, I don't think Ford is going to care about an environmentalists map anyway.