Transit City Plan

[EnviroTO]

I almost agree entirely. The only bone I have to pick is with the though of any portion of Eglinton not being grade separated. Everything west of Don Mills should be grade separated, and east of Don Mills is questionable as to whether it would require rapid transit at all, so is LRT even necessary?

That is the whole reason for LRT. With LRT full coverage of Eglinton is feasible because in the places a subway is not justified the LRT is cheap to implement at the surface. Therefore riders can arrive at Kennedy station from Scarborough and go straight into Yonge & Eglinton, the Airport, and the Science Centre area without needing to go downtown. In the locations where rapid transit is required it is provided, in the areas where rapid transit is not required a high capacity local service and network connectivity is provided. As time goes by and needs change, tunnels that dive under intersections can be built and stops can be removed or become stations.

 

[Dan416]

That is the whole reason for LRT. With LRT full coverage of Eglinton is feasible because in the places a subway is not justified the LRT is cheap to implement at the surface. Therefore riders can arrive at Kennedy station from Scarborough and go straight into Yonge & Eglinton, the Airport, and the Science Centre area without needing to go downtown. In the locations where rapid transit is required it is provided, in the areas where rapid transit is not required a high capacity local service and network connectivity is provided. As time goes by and needs change, tunnels that dive under intersections can be built and stops can be removed or become stations.

Same way we should just expand the Sheppard subway incrementally whenever we can.

 

[nfitz]

Same way we should just expand the Sheppard subway incrementally whenever we can.

Why would we do that when there are several other places where subway would better serve people than any further on Sheppard - at least past Victoria Park.

 

[Eug]

Why would we do that when there are several other places where subway would better serve people than any further on Sheppard - at least past Victoria Park.

Well, I would agree with Coruscanti too, but with the caveat that "expand the Sheppard subway incrementally whenever we can" acknowledges that there are other routes that are higher up on the priority list. "Whenever we can" also implies "after we've done some other stuff", at least to me.

In the meantime, Sheppard will do just fine with BRT.

 

[nfitz]

In the meantime, Sheppard will do just fine with BRT.

There's little point given them even that, after they voted for Ford. Let them ride regular buses.

 

[Eug]

There's little point given them even that, after they voted for Ford. Let them ride regular buses.

Heh. You really have a big chip on your shoulder don't you?

You're all for public transit, except for the philistines.

 

[GraphicMatt]

BRT is seriously never going to happen - the whole reason Ford announced Transit City was dead was because he believes there is a War on Cars and taking away roadspace is a bad thing.

Eglinton SHOULD be safe as-is maybe with a tweak to put it at the side of the road or whatever - there's a ton of logic behind believing this. But the flipside of this is that Ford has repeatedly prioritized Sheppard and Karen Stintz this week showed herself to be a total puppet for What Ford Wants, not even bothering to speak during the council debate on Essential Service.

Ford seems to believe that having a Sheppard Subway extension in place in time for the Pan-Am Games would be a really helpful thing.

 

[gweed123]

There's little point given them even that, after they voted for Ford. Let them ride regular buses.

I may be mistaken, but I don't think Ford has made public a clear position on BRT, or even BRT-Light. His two main slogans "replace streetcars with buses", and "all rapid transit should be underground" provides kind of a grey area in that regard. Yes, BRT is technically rapid transit, but it's also replacing what he sees to be a streetcar. So is BRT evil because it's not underground, or is it good because it's replacing a streetcar with a bus?

 

[nfitz]

Heh. You really have a big chip on your shoulder don't you?

You're all for public transit, except for the philistines.

No, I'm just not for spending political capital to bring transit to people who don't actually want it.

Clearly the people up there only will accept subway; and yet also don't want the densification that comes with subway. Clearly building subway east of Victoria Park is very low down the priority list. Clearly they don't want LRT, let alone dedicated BRT.

Perhaps give them more regular express routes ...

 

[EnviroTO]

Same way we should just expand the Sheppard subway incrementally whenever we can.

There will never be the need because too many people are unwilling to take the intermediate step. It is hard to argue a subway extension is required when we haven't bothered with incremental upgrades because it is obvious the current capacity fits in buses in mixed traffic. Growth in the area will be reduced due to poor mobility. The whole idea of the LRT -> pre-metro -> metro evolution that exists in Europe and which has been successful in delivering new lines where required is that each investment is building what is required today and nobody sees it as the end of future possibilities but instead see it as the start of something better.

 

[Dan416]

There will never be the need because too many people are unwilling to take the intermediate step. It is hard to argue a subway extension is required when we haven't bothered with incremental upgrades because it is obvious the current capacity fits in buses in mixed traffic. Growth in the area will be reduced due to poor mobility. The whole idea of the LRT -> pre-metro -> metro evolution that exists in Europe and which has been successful in delivering new lines where required is that each investment is building what is required today and nobody sees it as the end of future possibilities but instead see it as the start of something better.

That whole argument is moot though on Sheppard because we already have a subway on Sheppard. If you want to use it for Eglinton go right ahead.

 

[EnviroTO]

That whole argument is moot though on Sheppard because we already have a subway on Sheppard. If you want to use it for Eglinton go right ahead.

It isn't moot. They often run LRT out of the terminus stations of subway lines and when required extend the subway.

 

[GenerationW]

What was the state of the transit plan that Miller supposedly threw in the trash?

Did it have funding in place (even if for only part of the plan)? Did it have completed detailed plans and designs? Did it have contracts signed? Did it have construction starting or about to start?

It seems silly to try and make them seem equivalent.

I agree a key point of difference is the contracts. One would assume that whether penalties can be avoided or minimized will be a large factor in determining Eglinton's fate (though maybe not). Another possibility is that Ford's plan will propose a shorter (and contractually feasible?) Eglinton route, such as from Yonge to Eglinton West Station for example.

I don't think it's accurate to say that it delayed transit expansion at all. If instead of announcing Transit City, Miller had in 2007 announced the Sheppard East subway was his priority, today we'd be at about the same stage as we are with the SELRT: very initial construction.

Federal and provincial funding didn't come through for SELRT plan until spring 2009. That's only a year and a half. The issuing of contracts and planning took much of that time, just as it would for a subway, and construction is getting underway now.

This is actually far faster than things moved with the Spadina extension. We've had a funding commitment for it since 2006, and it's only in the opening phase of construction as well.

For the record, Spadina's final funding was announced in March '07, and ground was broken in November '09.

SELRT can just die and be forgotten. First priority is getting the SRT replaced with a subway from Kennedy to STC.

With $300+ million of Federal cash that's specific to transit on Sheppard, it might be possible to kill the SELRT outright, but I don't think it's possible to do nothing on Sheppard.

 

[Asterix]

Another possibility is that Ford's plan will propose a shorter (and contractually feasible?) Eglinton route, such as from Yonge to Eglinton West Station for example.

If you're going LRT for that stretch, then you've got nowhere to store/fix/maintain the LRVs.

If you're going subway, you've got a huge expense to figure out a connection to either Yonge or University lines.

 

[Dan416]

It isn't moot. They often run LRT out of the terminus stations of subway lines and when required extend the subway.

Out of a terminus station like STC, yes. Not out of a non-terminus station like Don Mills. Don Mills was never meant to be a terminus.