Transit City Plan

[Voltz]

This is what remains our fundamental difference of opinions.

Unless I am mistaken, you are only interested in an Eglinton line running in the underground portion from west of Keele through to Don Mills. In that situation, then yes, fully 100% grade separation has a good case.

But for those of us interested in seeing the line extend on the surface well to the west and east of those locations, there is still not the demonstrated discernible benefit to going hog-wild isolating the Eglinton-Leslie intersection given decent signal priority can achieve the same level of service speed at a fraction of the cost.

I would also like to see the line continue farther as planned, but I believe it would be beneficial to fix up the Leslie intersection because Don Mills will be a major transfer point and there will be significantly more rider west of it than to the east, this makes it a logical place to short turn half of the trains. Only so many trains per hour can run through a level intersection, and once service rises beyond this level it would have to be done at Laird instead, this is akin to short turning half of the trains on the Yonge line at Davisville when a significant amount of riders want to go to Eglinton.

Grade separating Leslie would also eliminate the need to build storage and crossover tracks at Laird, this would save a large amount of money as building them more than doubles the length of the underground structure needed.

 

[rbt]

My point is that regardless of past history, we are oh-so-close to actually starting major needed rapid transit infrastructure, further along than we've been in a very long time (even the Harris-canceled Eglinton subway was only going to be a token stubway from the Allen a few kms to the west). But now we're being told that's out the window and we'll be back to another several years of planning and discussing (starting from the ridiculous initial premise that unfunded gravy train subways where there is not the demand are the only way to proceed).

If Eglinton somehow gets cancelled again (Ford delays, Hudak revokes funding); it will be 2100 before any politician considers trying an Eglinton line again.

 

[gweed123]

I would also like to see the line continue farther as planned, but I believe it would be beneficial to fix up the Leslie intersection because Don Mills will be a major transfer point and there will be significantly more rider west of it than to the east, this makes it a logical place to short turn half of the trains. Only so many trains per hour can run through a level intersection, and once service rises beyond this level it would have to be done at Laird instead, this is akin to short turning half of the trains on the Yonge line at Davisville when a significant amount of riders want to go to Eglinton.

Grade separating Leslie would also eliminate the need to build storage and crossover tracks at Laird, this would save a large amount of money as building them more than doubles the length of the underground structure needed.

Very good point. Thank you for mentioning that. So yes, it is quite possible that grade-separating near Leslie will be nearly cost-neutral, because of the elimination of the cross-over tracks inside the tunnel at Laird.

 

[SimonP]

We were nearly as close in 2006-2007, before the reset button was pressed. I wasn't on UT back then, but I wonder what the general sentiment was on here. I wonder how much defence there was for RTES, and how much criticism there was for Miller and TC, considering that Miller basically pushed the reset button on transit, and pushed transit expansion another 3-4 years back.

I don't think it's accurate to say that it delayed transit expansion at all. If instead of announcing Transit City, Miller had in 2007 announced the Sheppard East subway was his priority, today we'd be at about the same stage as we are with the SELRT: very initial construction.

Federal and provincial funding didn't come through for SELRT plan until spring 2009. That's only a year and a half. The issuing of contracts and planning took much of that time, just as it would for a subway, and construction is getting underway now.

This is actually far faster than things moved with the Spadina extension. We've had a funding commitment for it since 2006, and it's only in the opening phase of construction as well.

 

[gweed123]

If Eglinton somehow gets cancelled again (Ford delays, Hudak revokes funding); it will be 2100 before any politician considers trying an Eglinton line again.

Even if Ford does decide that, I seriously doubt council will vote to can the Eglinton line. Also, hopefully by the next provincial election, it will be further along, to the point where cancelling it just doesn't make financial sense. Although to be fair, Conservatives have never been good with numbers (re: steadily increasing Federal deficit since Harper took office... also Clinton's record surplus to Bush's record deficit in under 4 years).

 

[Tewder]

If Eglinton somehow gets cancelled again (Ford delays, Hudak revokes funding); it will be 2100 before any politician considers trying an Eglinton line again.

No. Transit/gridlock are much more central in the minds of the public now, and all the more so as the situation gets worse. We have just seen the beginning of this as a politicized issue. Elected leaders will not be able to ignore much longer.

 

[rbt]

No. Transit/gridlock are much more central in the minds of the public now, and all the more so as the situation gets worse. We have just seen the beginning of this as a politicized issue. Elected leaders will not be able to ignore much longer.

Erm, we just saw Ford elected to cancel Eglinton to the Airport, Finch west, Western Waterfront LRT, and a number of other items which would have helped congestion. If suburban Toronto has elected NOT to improve public transit in their areas (North York and Etobicoke), why would any area outside of Toronto care?

Congestion, and solutions other than road or highway expansion, are concerns by a small group within the province.

Particularly if the debate in the next election is primarily about 1) deficit, 2) health care, and 3) HST.

Given a mandate to cut the deficit, reduce HST by 1%, and improve healthcare; Hudak won't have any choice but to defer indefinitely any major spending that isn't already tendered or directly targeted at emergency room wait times. That would include both Eglinton and Ottawa LRT lines.

In the run-up to 2015 some of these things will come back. SRT replacement money for example and bus replacement money (we will need about $500M for that), Mississauga and Hamilton LRT, and maybe the Peterborough rail link.

Spadina extension is safe as is the rail link. Both have complex funding and obligations.


Do make sure public transit becomes a major issue in the next election. If emergency room wait times are the only pro-spend item, it's going to be a disappointing decade.

 

[Ed Drass]

news pieces: insidetoronto, thestar.com

Downsview to Yonge subway connection vital: Pasternak
TTC report going to council disagrees

He's got the mayor in his corner but not yet the TTC.

York Centre (Ward 10) Councillor James Pasternak is pushing for the construction of a westward extension of the Sheppard subway from the TTC's Yonge to Downsview stations.

Continued: http://www.insidetoronto.com/news/c...ew-to-yonge-subway-connection-vital-pasternak

--
Re: Stintz hangs hat on transit reform, Dec. 15

Karen Stintz, new chair of the TTC, seems to feel that because she lives and works near the subway and travels on public transit, she is a “typical transit user†and has a clear grasp of what’s needed to improve “customer service†and increase ridership.

She’s wrong. Toronto has less than 70 kilometres of subway to cover a city about 700 square kilometres in extent. A typical transit user rides the buses. He or she puts up with an unmitigated rolling horror show in which long waits, massive overcrowding, and slow and unreliable service are the rule rather than the exception.

So until Stintz spends a good deal of her life standing on street corners waiting 20 or 30 minutes for buses that are supposed to arrive in less than 10, she will not be a “typical transit user.†Also, unless she focuses on resolving this all-important problem instead of concerning herself with the more cosmetic issues that the TTC has used to distract our attention of late, she won’t make much of a TTC chair either.

Continued: http://www.thestar.com/opinion/letters/article/908505--fight-over-ttc-begins

 

[Ed Drass]

Gridlock within the core of Toronto has been bad since the 70's. Its actually measured better today.

Has anyone seen a breakdown of average trip times for TTC routes over time? Such as how long did the Queen car take to travel between Broadview and Ronces in 1990, 2000 and now? Likewise, the Finch East bus on its busiest portion, over time? My understanding is that traffic has increased faster in outer 416 than inner -- and this continues today. Is this borne out by study of actual auto and TTC trips and demonstrated on a simple graph? If so then perhaps it is possible to extrapolate trip times in, say 4 years, when the current council term ends.

-Ed

 

[rbt]

Has anyone seen a breakdown of average trip times for TTC routes over time? Such as how long did the Queen car take to travel between Broadview and Ronces in 1990, 2000 and now? Likewise, the Finch East bus on its busiest portion, over time? My understanding is that traffic has increased faster in outer 416 than inner -- and this continues today. Is this borne out by study of actual auto and TTC trips and demonstrated on a simple graph? If so then perhaps it is possible to extrapolate trip times in, say 4 years, when the current council term ends.

I'm not aware of TTC information for this. Vehicle congestion is reported by the works department every once in a while and it was one of their predictions during Lastman era (Rocket Riders saw snippets around 2003 I think) that lead to transit city.

I wouldn't be surprised if the works department could produce such numbers if requested by council. Perks and Vaughan might be able to get council to investigate such a thing. Nothing is more fiscally responsible than planning by the numbers.

 

[Asterix]

I would also like to see the line continue farther as planned, but I believe it would be beneficial to fix up the Leslie intersection because Don Mills will be a major transfer point and there will be significantly more rider west of it than to the east, this makes it a logical place to short turn half of the trains. Only so many trains per hour can run through a level intersection, and once service rises beyond this level it would have to be done at Laird instead, this is akin to short turning half of the trains on the Yonge line at Davisville when a significant amount of riders want to go to Eglinton.

Grade separating Leslie would also eliminate the need to build storage and crossover tracks at Laird, this would save a large amount of money as building them more than doubles the length of the underground structure needed.

Ok, that's an argument I can essentially buy into, although I don't think demand on Eglinton will be pushing the serviceable capacity of that intersection any time soon.

Long term it'd be great to have the DRL extend up to Don Mills and Eglinton and that could be a good hub, but we know that won't be for decades (we'll be lucky to see the Danforth to downtown portion even started 10 years from now).

 

[Rainforest]

Even without DRL reaching Eglinton, the section west of Don Mills will see significantly more riders. Lawrence East buses and some of Flemmington Park buses will likely feed Eglinton LRT at Don Mills or Leslie, and riders from those buses will take LRT to get to Yonge.

Therefore, full grade separation between Yonge and Don Mills is a worthy goal on its own, even regadless of Ford´s position. If, in addition, such grade separation is a precondition to sway the current mayor in favor of Eglinton, it becomes even more appealing. We are not talking about a complete redesign, but about changes for a few sections.

It is extremely important that Eglinton line proceeds now and does not get dropped. If the construction of, at least, the Jane - Don Mills section of Eglinton continues under the current mayor, there will be plenty of opportunities in future to debate and select the design of extemities.

If the whole line is deferred now, it will be a lot harder, both fiscally and psychologically, to ever start it again.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I had to take the 32 Eglinton West bus from Martin Grove to Jane Street today, during the evening rush. Had to wait 10 minutes for the bus (there were already people waiting when I got to the bus stop) to arrive and when it arrived, it was packed. The drive was very slow, even skipping a stop because it was so crowded. The main problem was all the automobiles, mostly with just a driver in them.

Years ago, the residents were upset when faced with a proposal for a reserved bus lane along Eglinton Avenue West in Etobicoke. A light rail along Eglinton had more acceptance.

The current plans for Eglinton were for a above ground light rail in Etobicoke as the second phase for the Eglinton Crosstown Line. How long will we have to wait before any kind of rapid transit to show up, hopefully this century? With Rob Ford's plans, there would be nothing for Etobicoke. We will either have to wait for a bus or use a car, even when the price at the fuel pump continues to go up.

 

[Dan416]

I remember when Transit City was initially announced, I was excited because it promised covering the city with a new network of cheap LRT lines that the City could build on its own without external funding. When that changed to doing it 3 ways with the province and the federal government, and then the projected costs soared beyond the point of it being affordable to do without help, and then the Province decided it would pay for all of it when the Feds refused to join in. After all this, we're spending billions of dollars for LRTs that will only be marginally faster than existing buses (Eglinton being the obvious exception). I remember the City's Transit City webpage had a poll about which TC line they felt was most important, and Eglinton won by a landslide.

No matter what we do, I think Eglinton should be the backbone of what we build. If we keep the tunnelled portion LRT, and just do everything as per the original Transit City plan, I'll be fine with that. If they grade separate more and take it off the street and put it in the Richview corridor, well then, even better. If they just take the tunnel and build it as Subway and do BRT on the ends, I'm fine with that too.

I think the best middle ground for Eglinton is keeping it as LRT but relooking at the ends and how we can do them so they're completed grade separated and have no interaction with traffic. If we did that, Ford would be satisfied, Stintz would be satisfied, and we'd have a new line we could proudly put on our Rapid Transit map.

SELRT can just die and be forgotten. First priority is getting the SRT replaced with a subway from Kennedy to STC.

After those two projects are funded, whatever money is left can be used to extend the Sheppard subway east or west.

 

[Second_in_pie]

No matter what we do, I think Eglinton should be the backbone of what we build. If we keep the tunnelled portion LRT, and just do everything as per the original Transit City plan, I'll be fine with that. If they grade separate more and take it off the street and put it in the Richview corridor, well then, even better. If they just take the tunnel and build it as Subway and do BRT on the ends, I'm fine with that too.

I think the best middle ground for Eglinton is keeping it as LRT but relooking at the ends and how we can do them so they're completed grade separated and have no interaction with traffic. If we did that, Ford would be satisfied, Stintz would be satisfied, and we'd have a new line we could proudly put on our Rapid Transit map.

SELRT can just die and be forgotten. First priority is getting the SRT replaced with a subway from Kennedy to STC.

After those two projects are funded, whatever money is left can be used to extend the Sheppard subway east or west.

I almost agree entirely. The only bone I have to pick is with the though of any portion of Eglinton not being grade separated. Everything west of Don Mills should be grade separated, and east of Don Mills is questionable as to whether it would require rapid transit at all, so is LRT even necessary? All it does is add an odd system in and requires an orphan LRT-only yard.
I'm just wondering why they'd want LRT at all if the entire thing is grade separated, which is absolutely needs to be whether the section to Pearson comes now or later.