Transit City Plan

[Ansem]

Ansem:



Geez, you are arguing for the line on the basis of another extension that isn't likely going to happen without significant improvements to the rest of the YUS line? That's surely is a good argument for "additional connectivity" without considering the immediate impact Eglinton can offer instead. Where's that in the RF plan?

And BTW, here is what the report actually said, for your benefit:

Options for Yard Expansion
• Examine yard requirements to 2031
• Study completed by Spring 2009
• Expand Davisville to extent practical
• Expand Wilson only
• Expand Wilson plus new yard on Yonge line
• Expand Wilson plus new storage tracks at north end of Yonge extension
• With/without Sheppard Subway Extension to Downsview
• Sheppard extension important if:
• New Yonge yard likely not possible
• Satellite yard does not mitigate impact on deadhead mileage/maintenance window

http://www3.ttc.ca/PDF/About_the_TT...ion_recommended_concept_project_issues_de.pdf (p. 38)

That's a lot of "ifs" for a line that is already an "if" - and you think putting resources into that segment of Sheppard is a good idea considering competing priorities?

And here from the TTC Yonge Subway Yard Study

Option 5 – Sheppard Subway Connection to Wilson Yard/Wilson Yard Expansion
A Sheppard Subway connection to/from Wilson Yard (in combination with expansion of Wilson Yard and the RHC extended tailtrack for 14 trains) results in lower deadhead mileage and building operations costs. However, the savings in operating costs over the 2010 – 2030 period ($8 to $11 million over the 20 year period) is small in comparison to the NPV of additional capital costs for the Sheppard Subway connection (Downsview to Yonge). While the Sheppard Subway connection is an important network and strategic connection in the long term and would provide operational flexibility to feed the Yonge Subway directly from Wilson Yard, it cannot be justified from an NPV or yard perspective and as a result, Option 5 is not cost effective.

http://www3.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Co...mber_17_2009/Reports/Yonge_University_Spa.pdf

AoD

Then what's your solution for Sheppard West?

-Bus Rapid transit?
Gridlock at peak hours makes them useless.
The avenue has 2 lanes in each directions. too narrow for reserved lanes
Already have queue jumps starting at Bathurst.

TTC is proposing express buses on Sheppard West...Really. We already have the 196 and during peak hour, they are useless.

Gridlock on Sheppard west for the 84 bus is from Tuscan Gate (futurre Downsview park station) to Yonge
For the express bus, it's from Downsview Station to Yonge.


LRT?
To narrow


TTC responds is Bus Transit City...Won't work on Sheppard...How would you fix it?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Ansem:

Is it such an important problem vis-a-vis the transit issues facing the rest of the city such that it demands an immediate infusion of resources? I mean, at the end of the day that's a question for you to answer - you're saying that there are more important routes, but at the same time you have absolutely no qualms putting resources where the problems aren't the most acute at the cost of where it is. THAT is my beef about what's happening in the RF plan, not the secondary issue of LRT vs. HRT that some of you would like to paint it as.

AoD

 

[Ansem]

It seems to me you are confirming it as well. If the 196 to Yonge branch isn't managed effectively, leaving almost all the demand to be handled by the 84, then by your own reports, what we have is a route that is scheduled every five and a half minutes, even if it is overcrowded, it does not represent anything close to subway level demand. Even doubling the numbers.

Like I told Alvino...you keep saying that but how would you fix it?
The buses are trapped in traffic from Tuscan gate to Yonge.
The avenue is too narrow for reserved lanes, LRT.

TTC responds is having the 84 with an express branch...Same thing will happen to it like the 196...trapped in traffic.
What's your solution?

 

[SimonP]

Montreal Blue line (2006) (12 stations-9.7 Km)
http://www.metrodemontreal.com/blue/index.html

The blue line in Montreal is not considered as a failure but a success. It used to be shutdown at 11h10 pm when the ridership was low and now it closes later. On peak hours they use 6-cars trains and 3 cars-trains off peak.

Did you read the very page you linked to? That page opens by stating "This is the newest but the most troubled of Montreal's four metro lines. It has never performed up to its traffic expectations, which explains both the shortened trains and the shortened hours"

If the Blue line with 80,000 riders is indeed considered a failure by those in Montreal, then what are we to make of Sheppard with only 50,000 riders.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Ansem

You don't get it - at the end of the day, this issue is a footnote compared to the problem with SRT, the absence of DRL and Eglinton - if you can't even prioritize those very real issues against a link of minor importance, then quite frankly it's like looking at trees and ignoring the forests.

AoD

 

[Ansem]

Ansem:

Is it such an important problem vis-a-vis the transit issues facing the rest of the city such that it demands an immediate infusion of resources? I mean, at the end of the day that's a question for you to answer - you're saying that there are more important routes, but at the same time you have absolutely no qualms putting resources where the problems aren't the most acute at the cost of where it is. THAT is my beef about what's happening in the RF plan, not the secondary issue of LRT vs. HRT that some of you would like to paint it as.

AoD

Then you haven't read my previous posts. The long one comparing blue line vs Sheppard line.
I said we should have the rocket continuing operating to STC and consider have reserved lanes until the day there are funds for subways on sheppard.

On that issue, I agree that throwing funds on Sheppard before Eglinton and DRL is stupid and that's my problem with Ford.
Express buses on Eglinton? won't work for the same reason the express on Sheppard doesn't work. Eglinton should go first.

Where we disagree is people says let's have LRT on Sheppard. I disagree there. If money is left after Eglinton and Bloor Danforth to STC, improve Eglinton by making the tunnel go from Jane to Don Mills or upgrade to HRT. When you do something, you do it right the first time.

Look how stupid where looking with the SRT debacle and now we'll have to demolish that thing $, buy new trains $$, dig with today's dollars $$$
See the waste at using 2 technologies on the same routes?

I'd rather we do Eglinton HRT or LRT (longer underground section) right the very first time and wait for future funds for Sheppard
Is that so unreasonable

 

[gweed123]

Ansem

You don't get it - at the end of the day, this issue is a footnote compared to the problem with SRT, the absence of DRL and Eglinton - if you can't even prioritize those very real issues against a link of minor importance, then quite frankly it's like looking at trees and ignoring the forests.

AoD

I have to agree. While Sheppard West may look good on a map, and may provide some connectivity, it's definitely not a top priority. Unless you build a wye at Sheppard-Yonge, and another at Downsview, so that you can reroute southbound trains from the Yonge line onto Sheppard West, so they can take the Spadina line downtown, I don't really think at this point it would be a profitable subway.

The DRL, the extension to STC, and Eglinton are undoubtedly the Top 3 priorities Toronto SHOULD be focusing on. If the TTC's new plan contains 2 of those 3, I'll be a very happy guy.

Extensions of the Sheppard line on both sides are needed, but they aren't necessary. There in lies the difference. The DRL, the extension to STC, and Eglinton are necessary, for one reason or another (whether or not its ridership exceeding the capacity, or aging infrastructure, or both).

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Ansem

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you there - but like I've said before and will say so again - the issue at this point shouldn't be anything to do with Sheppard; BD to STC yes, Eglinton, yes, DRL yes, yes and yes - but everything else should be a secondary priority. That's not what we have been served.

AoD

 

[SimonP]

Then what's your solution for Sheppard West?

The Sheppard West bus gets about 16,000 riders per day. Eglinton, Jane, Finch, and Don Mills buses each get over 40,000. There are many other routes that don't have a planned upgrades (Lawrence, Dufferin, Steeles) that also get far more riders than Sheppard West.

While congestion on Sheppard West is a problem, there are many other routes that are far more in need of rapid transit.

Moreover it's crazy to spend billions on a subway to serve 16,000 riders when much busier routes are just being upgraded to LRT.

 

[Ansem]

Did you read the very page you linked to? That page opens by stating "This is the newest but the most troubled of Montreal's four metro lines. It has never performed up to its traffic expectations, which explains both the shortened trains and the shortened hours"

If the Blue line with 80,000 riders is indeed considered a failure by those in Montreal, then what are we to make of Sheppard with only 50,000 riders.

Sorry for the article being in French
http://www.expressoutremont.com/Soc...ient-a-la-fin-de-2010,-selon-Andre-Lavallee/1

Andre Lavallee (vice-president of the executive commitee and Transportation plan of Montreal)

Quote:
- Said extending the blue line east was an absolute priority
-Quebec Transport minister said the blue extension goes first before extending the Yellow and orange line
-The orange extension to Laval (3 stations) have a ridership of 60 000 per day and estimates that the extension will go even beyond
-Says that ridership justifies extension
-Said BRT, LRT and skytrain was studied but it makes no sense to ask 50K to 60K riders to switch technology on the same corridor
(2009)

 

[Ansem]

Ansem

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you there - but like I've said before and will say so again - the issue at this point shouldn't be anything to do with Sheppard; BD to STC yes, Eglinton, yes, DRL yes, yes and yes - but everything else should be a secondary priority. That's not what we have been served.

AoD

Agreed, Ford should not bring Sheppard unless BD to STC and Eglinton (Jane to Don Mills) are financed.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Actually I would put the extension to Pearson via Eglinton and maybe east to Kennedy higher up than anything with Sheppard, maybe with the exception of a short run to Consumers or Vic Park.

AoD

 

[Ansem]

The Sheppard West bus gets about 16,000 riders per day. Eglinton, Jane, Finch, and Don Mills buses each get over 40,000. There are many other routes that don't have a planned upgrades (Lawrence, Dufferin, Steeles) that also get far more riders than Sheppard West.

While congestion on Sheppard West is a problem, there are many other routes that are far more in need of rapid transit.

Moreover it's crazy to spend billions on a subway to serve 16,000 riders when much busier routes are just being upgraded to LRT.

Sheppard West is densifying. Houses are being demolished and replace buy condos. There's nothing in Vaughan but they made their cases on projected ridership.

Sheppard is not priority #1. When Eglinton, DRL, BD to STC are build, Sheppard should be next. I don't agree with putting a second technology on the same corridorjust because funding is here. Use that funding and do Eglinton and BD to STC right this time.

Sheppard can wait but not a reason to waste a billion to repeat the SRT debacle

 

[Ansem]

Actually I would put the extension to Pearson via Eglinton and maybe east to Kennedy higher up than anything with Sheppard, maybe with the exception of a short run to Consumers or Vic Park.

AoD

West Eglinton can wait with the Union link being operational in 2015. Eglinton East would be higher and than Sheppard.

 

[Asterix]

Like I told Alvino...you keep saying that but how would you fix it?
The buses are trapped in traffic from Tuscan gate to Yonge.
The avenue is too narrow for reserved lanes, LRT.

TTC responds is having the 84 with an express branch...Same thing will happen to it like the 196...trapped in traffic.
What's your solution?

I can simply parrot what others have tried to tell you repeatedly:

Eventually a subway should probably be built on Sheppard west from Yonge. Just not in the foreseeable future unless you have a magic money tree with unlimited cash. There are far more important issues to be addressed before working ourselves into a tizzy about Sheppard connecting to Downsview.

As you've listed, build me a DRL (I'll even settle for just the first eastern leg from Danforth to downtown) and a fully cross-town Eglinton LRT (right to the airport) and then we can lobby for Sheppard. We won't be needing to do that for at least another 10 - 15 years, even if current plans were to play out as best as could be hoped for.

As for intermediate solutions, I think you provided that as well: manage the 196 Yonge branch more effectively. That can be done a lot cheaper than building a subway. Respect the taxpayer and all that.