Transit City Plan

[CDL.TO]

Or check out the Paris-RER. Here's the schedule of departures on one route (B), southbound out of Gare-du-Nord. A train every 3 to 6 minutes from 5:30 AM to midnight. After running through downtown, the line branches, and some trains short-turn, but all run through the centre of Paris. And this doesn't include the trains on line A that follow the same route initially south out of Gare-du-Nord - frequencies on line A are one train every 2 minutes in rush-hour.

RER is heavy-rail. Some of the trains even are double-decker like GO trains.

Excellent point. Heavy rail can be an extremely flexible mode of transportation.

 

[acetradamus]

I don't see how a Sheppard LRT will drastically cut travel time to make much of a difference. It's 15min from Don Mills to Kennedy on the 85 bus and the 190 is the same. Sheppard LRT will have more stops than the 190 between Don Mills and Kennedy. Even if the LRT is slightly faster, everyone being pissed at having to walk further to a stop will offset this dramatically.

I think some of you don't understand what's important to the public. People just want to GET ON A BUS as soon as possible. That means frequency on the route and accessible stops. People do NOT want to spend 10-15-20min walking in the rain/snow/cold/wind/heat/humidity in addition to carrying things. The trade-offs don't add up to any benefit. I think people would much rather prefer being on a bus that takes 5min longer to get to their destination instead of having to walk an extra 10min to get to a stop.

What exactly is the benefit of the Sheppard LRT? It won't be travel times, because commute means the time from your house to your destination, not the time spent on a particular route. If the stops are less accessible a significant portion of riders, their total travel time will increase.

So if all LRT means is the vehicle will arrive according to the clock but doesn't get you where you're going faster, and it takes more effort to get to a stop, that's not appealing to many people.

Improving reliability and capacity ALONG a route that has nothing substantial might seem to make transit better according to some people.

But I think that travel times are what most people would like to see improved. Sheppard LRT won't save thru-riders any significant time.

2/3 of the travel time for east scarborough to downtown commuters is spent just getting to Kennedy station. It's only 30 min from Kennedy to downtown. If we want to reduce travel time for downtown trips, it won't be by Sheppard LRT to Don Mills. The fastest way from Scarborough to downtown is via STC-Kennedy, and by bringing the RT/subway or whatever form of rapid transit to Sheppard Ave, this would save about 20min. The reduced time comes from eliminating the bus journey to STC via a congested McCowan Rd and the transfer at STC.

I understand Sheppard LRT provides the capacity and reliability on a heavily used route that buses cannot be expected to handle with future growth projections. But this itself is not enough to enhance the effectiveness of transit in the east. There is still a need for rapid non-road/traffic light based transit that gets people downtown faster than what the current combination of surface routes can do.

The east side of Toronto doesn't have NORTH/SOUTH rapid transit north of Ellesmere. The current system of local bus routes services the Malvern area just fine, but the attractiveness of the network is enhanced by eliminating the unnecessary 10-15min travel time spent going from Sheppard to STC.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

99% of people will not be walking an extra 10 minutes to get to a Sheppard stop (and a Shorting/Havenview stop would increase this to a full 100%), but we don't know how long people will be waiting for a vehicle once they get there. Between the 85 and the 190, bus frequency is reliably high, but I'm sure they will get rid of the 190 (setting real bus improvements in this city back by decades), and run bigger vehicles less often.

 

[acetradamus]

damn... less frequency? fuck transit city

im quite happy with 5min bus service

 

[W. K. Lis]

Connections To Don Mills Subway Station

The presentation for the Sheppard East LRT has the following:

1.Surface LRT Connection - Hwy 404 bridge expanded to maintain existing traffic lanes and incorporate two lanes for LRT in the centre; traffic lanes reduced near Don Mills Road to allow LRT stop on surface, in the centre of Sheppard - a wide centre platform would include stairs and elevators connecting to the mezzanine level of the subway station.
2.Underground LRT Connection – tunnel under Hwy 404 beginning west of Consumers Road and connecting to either;
a) the mezzanine level of the subway (one level below the surface)
b) ‘butting up’ against the east end of the subway platform (two levels below the surface)
3.Subway Extension – extend the subway to Consumers Road area and build an LRT connection there

What was missing is the Don Mills LRT connection? Will there be non-revenue tracks or switches? Will there be allowance for a tripper service from Sheppard East and then down Don Mills to Pape or continuing as a Downtown Relief Line?

How do the two LRT lines connect?

 

[Voltz]

How the two lines would connect is not planned yet, they would first have to decide how to build the lrt platform at don mills and go from there. but I am sure they would already have an idea in their heads.

 

[Voltz]

I don't see how a Sheppard LRT will drastically cut travel time to make much of a difference. It's 15min from Don Mills to Kennedy on the 85 bus and the 190 is the same. Sheppard LRT will have more stops than the 190 between Don Mills and Kennedy. Even if the LRT is slightly faster, everyone being pissed at having to walk further to a stop will offset this dramatically.

I think some of you don't understand what's important to the public. People just want to GET ON A BUS as soon as possible. That means frequency on the route and accessible stops. People do NOT want to spend 10-15-20min walking in the rain/snow/cold/wind/heat/humidity in addition to carrying things. The trade-offs don't add up to any benefit. I think people would much rather prefer being on a bus that takes 5min longer to get to their destination instead of having to walk an extra 10min to get to a stop.

What exactly is the benefit of the Sheppard LRT? It won't be travel times, because commute means the time from your house to your destination, not the time spent on a particular route. If the stops are less accessible a significant portion of riders, their total travel time will increase.

So if all LRT means is the vehicle will arrive according to the clock but doesn't get you where you're going faster, and it takes more effort to get to a stop, that's not appealing to many people.

Improving reliability and capacity ALONG a route that has nothing substantial might seem to make transit better according to some people.

But I think that travel times are what most people would like to see improved. Sheppard LRT won't save thru-riders any significant time.

2/3 of the travel time for east scarborough to downtown commuters is spent just getting to Kennedy station. It's only 30 min from Kennedy to downtown. If we want to reduce travel time for downtown trips, it won't be by Sheppard LRT to Don Mills. The fastest way from Scarborough to downtown is via STC-Kennedy, and by bringing the RT/subway or whatever form of rapid transit to Sheppard Ave, this would save about 20min. The reduced time comes from eliminating the bus journey to STC via a congested McCowan Rd and the transfer at STC.

I understand Sheppard LRT provides the capacity and reliability on a heavily used route that buses cannot be expected to handle with future growth projections. But this itself is not enough to enhance the effectiveness of transit in the east. There is still a need for rapid non-road/traffic light based transit that gets people downtown faster than what the current combination of surface routes can do.

The east side of Toronto doesn't have NORTH/SOUTH rapid transit north of Ellesmere. The current system of local bus routes services the Malvern area just fine, but the attractiveness of the network is enhanced by eliminating the unnecessary 10-15min travel time spent going from Sheppard to STC.

For going downtown from that area, I would rather take an enhanced go train service than local transit, the TTC can't be expected to do everything

 

[urbanfan89]

^^ I find that when we discuss improving the TTC, no one has thought about GO providing regional rail service among existing lines.

To get from Malvern to downtown, you could just take the GO Train straight to Union (or to Summerhill/Dupont, then transfer).

A lot of the commuters from Scarborough could takes LRT and buses to Kennedy, then GO Train straight to Union.

Those travelling from STC to NYCC can avoid the TTC altogether if GO buses run every 10 minutes on the 401, and if a transitway is somehow squeezed in.

 

[RedRocket191]

I think we can all agree that GO is the solution for trips heading downtown. Improving service is a no brainer, but I think the real problem is fares. A trip from Sheppard and Kennedy to the CBD is the Agincourt to Union is about 20 minutes on GO, and more than an hour on the TTC. But it cost a fair bit more on GO.

Lets face it. Most people are cheap, and are willing to put up with a fair amount of inconvenience in order to save some money. If we want more people to use GO for trips where GO is more efficient, we have to let them pay a fare closer to what they would pay if they were on TTC. If not, its just not going to fly.

But, GO is not the solution for hop-on, hop-off service along our avenues. We need a solution that increases capacity and reliabilty, is cost effective, and promotes the kind of development that we want to see.

 

[drum118]

^^ I find that when we discuss improving the TTC, no one has thought about GO providing regional rail service among existing lines.

To get from Malvern to downtown, you could just take the GO Train straight to Union (or to Summerhill/Dupont, then transfer).

A lot of the commuters from Scarborough could takes LRT and buses to Kennedy, then GO Train straight to Union.

Those travelling from STC to NYCC can avoid the TTC altogether if GO buses run every 10 minutes on the 401, and if a transitway is somehow squeezed in.

I had a looked at the CP tracks north of Malvern Town Centre and there is enough room to put 2 tracks in for GO and 2 platforms. There is no room to put in parking lots without taking part of the park out. I don't support taking the park out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uztkp0rP3jc

There is not enough room to put a underground track without starting the tunnel further to the west along the tracks.

I see 3 types of service for GO within 416. Local stops every major cross road, limit stops, and long haul. Since we will only using LRT equipment for local service, you will not need full blow stations. You will not need parking lots as connecting routes as well shuttle type service will replace them.

Service would be 5-15 minutes on "ALL" existing tracks.

Fare to use GO in 416 is the same fare as TTC with interchangeable transfers. This would take a large chunk of riders off the subway lines as well providing faster travel time.

Will require twin or tripling of existing tracks as well upgrading crossing so long there is 2 tracks for GO.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

^^ I find that when we discuss improving the TTC, no one has thought about GO providing regional rail service among existing lines.

On the contrary, everyone's thought of it (except for the few people who think 4 trains per day is the best they'll ever do).

GO trains cannot solve all of our transit problems, but almost everyone here would like to see GO get a few billion dollars right now to transform itself before we start planning and building billions and billions and billions and billions of dollars worth of other transit lines to remote areas (that invariably terminate at GO stations). The last thing we need is for a few complaints from Morningside Heights triggering $2-3 billion worth of RT and LRT lines to Malvern only to have the Midtown GO line show up and steal all the riders, leaving the other lines completely abandoned.

 

[Dan416]

On the contrary, everyone's thought of it (except for the few people who think 4 trains per day is the best they'll ever do).

GO trains cannot solve all of our transit problems, but almost everyone here would like to see GO get a few billion dollars right now to transform itself before we start planning and building billions and billions and billions and billions of dollars worth of other transit lines to remote areas (that invariably terminate at GO stations). The last thing we need is for a few complaints from Morningside Heights triggering $2-3 billion worth of RT and LRT lines to Malvern only to have the Midtown GO line show up and steal all the riders, leaving the other lines completely abandoned.

We REALLY should concentrate on getting GO working properly first. It's too focussed on rush hour.

 

[RedRocket191]

We REALLY should concentrate on getting GO working properly first. It's too focussed on rush hour.

There is no "first" anymore. We need to do more than one thing at a time if we're ever going to get less behind the curve than we are now.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

There still are firsts...we should have improved GO before Rubber Stamp McGuinty went to town on every project politicians could cobble together last year.

 

[RedRocket191]

There still are firsts...we should have improved GO before Rubber Stamp McGuinty went to town on every project politicians could cobble together last year.

I can assure you that MoveOntario 2020 is not being rubber stamped.