Transit City Plan

[acetradamus]

scarberiankhatru... a malvern extension of the RT brings RAPID TRANSIT closer to the people that fill up the trains at STC.

Ridership of the malvern extension would come from 134 progress, 131 nugget, 133 neilson, 132 milner, 102 markham. There probably would be riders from 116 morningside transfering to sheppard to get to the markham rd station as a faster route to the green line. And if the extension went up to malvern town center, there'd probably be some downtown trips switching from finch east to the new rt extension.

The majority of TTC stations aren't dependent on walk-up riders, so I don't see why you look at a google map of markham and sheppard and complain fields don't equal riders. They don't... but bus routes that run through the area will bring people to the station just like they do everywhere else in the city.

People are using the Malvern bus routes to get to STC, people are using Sheppard to get to McCowan to transfer to a bus route to STC... so why is it a problem to bring rapid transit directly to the origin of ridership?

 

[scarberiankhatru]

scarberiankhatru... a malvern extension of the RT brings RAPID TRANSIT closer to the people that fill up the trains at STC.

Bus riders from Malvern are *not* filling the RT. Saying so doesn't make it true.

edit - and they don't even fill up STC station. For simple math's sake, if we assume that the Nuggest/Milner/Progress/Neilson buses pour in as many riders as McCowan/Brimley/Middlefield/Highland Creek, those buses contribute at most 32% of the RT riders. We're talking about fewer than 15,000, and probably more like 12,000, rides a day, many of which risk being cannabalized by other projects.

Seriously, look at the numbers, not at "crowded" buses - every bus route in the city is crowded during rush hour. At most, 1/3 of the RT ridership is from Malvern, and it could very well be below 1/4. Malvern has a limited pool of potential riders since there's nothing but the Rouge Park beyond there, and the RT extension will compete with the Sheppard LRT, the Morningside LRT, the Midtown GO line, and existing bus routes for this limited pool. An RT extension is completely unjustifiable on any grounds other than politics.

 

[drum118]

If you water down the plan too much, you lose the whole idea of LRT, and then it becomes questionable to pour $6 Billion into LRT when the time savings evaporate. The stop spacing I saw was quite reasonable, and closer together than even the Woodbine-Keele segment of the B-D subway.

I could see perhaps 2 or 3 stops added to the list as reasonable, like a stop between Shorting and Markham. But more than that, it turns into Spadina or St. Clair - where the ridiculousness of some stop spacing, like Northcliffe, having stops at Wychwood, Vaughan and Bathurst (distance of 200 metres apart from each other) and Russel Hill and Warren, remained.

Keep in mind that 250m either way along Sheppard is one thing, but to getting into the residential area is another.

If one only had to walk 300m to the stop down/up the street that the current stop is at, it could/will become 550m for the LRT.

Going into the side streets off the main street, the distance increases.

If you have a stop('s) that generate very few riders throughout the day that being service today, then riders will have to deal with the longer walk. If it sees large number of riders, then that stop needs to be look at closely to see if it stays or go. It not black and white to say what stop stays or go to speed up the line for a few.

In most cases, longer spacing is not going to have a real impact. It will help with redeveloping alone Sheppard in many places.

What is missing from this whole process, what is going to happen to various route like 224, 167 and 190.? Knowing the thinking of the bean counters as well the movement within TTC, those routes will disappear and be replace by another type of north-south service.

TTC doesn't want parallel service along Sheppard at this time.

Having a branch LRT line to STC would replace the 190, but not been talk about.

I expect to see some type of hub around Morningside to replace the various branches of 85's. Since not much is there now, it would help redevelopment of the area. It would help to provide better service to the Malvern area.

I will take this LRT one step further and that is take it into Pickering by Sheppard Ave in Pickering. It would replace the DRT BRT with LRT from Day one. Still see an LRT from Pickering Town Centre into Toronto by Kingston Rd also.

You could run a branch line from the hub to the GO station also.

In the end, this LRT will help building the Sheppard Subway from Pickering Town Center to Sq One by the way of the airport. If, if the Pickering airport does get build, the the Sheppard line feeds both airports.

Put yourself in someone shoes who has to use a walker or cane to get to/from a stop that is 700m away on a snowy bitter cold day at -20plus. I have to do this now for my 10 minute walk and I 'm healthy and it's not fun.

If we are building a transit system/network for the aging population as well mobility riders, spacing of stops must be looked at closely as to where they go or are removed. Regardless if a line is BRT, LRT, Subway or heavy rail, the spacing of stations will have an impact as how people use the line and land use. One only has to look at GO spacing to see people will jump into their car to get to the station than use transit.

I agree both St Clair and Spadina should have stops removed as well other routes to help to improve service.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Since most riders are walking to Sheppard from north or south, they can cut through crescents and parks and anything else and in most cases only 100 or 200 metres will be added to their walk even if stop spacing goes from 400m to 800m or 1km. Even then, that will be the maximum walking distance...the vast majority will not have to go as far. All of the north/south routes in Scarborough will still be at most a 400m walk away from everyone, so people can transfer from them to Sheppard if they want or need to get around walking as little as possible.

 

[Rainforest]

... I will take this LRT one step further and that is take it into Pickering by Sheppard Ave in Pickering. It would replace the DRT BRT with LRT from Day one. Still see an LRT from Pickering Town Centre into Toronto by Kingston Rd also. ...

But how long would such a trip take?

 

[RedRocket191]

But how long would such a trip take?

I think connections to GO transit (as well as fare integration) is key to ensure that would ensure that no one is riding from Pickering Town Centre to Don Mills.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

No one in Durham would or should use anything other than GO trains or maybe a few GO buses along the 401. Any line through Rouge Park would probably be killed, anyway.

Of course, we could go crazy and build transit lines that people would actually use, like up McCowan or Warden, or along Wilson or Lawrence, or Dufferin, or Bathurst, or Kipling, or...

 

[RedRocket191]

No one in Durham would or should use anything other than GO trains or maybe a few GO buses along the 401. Any line through Rouge Park would probably be killed, anyway.

A line across sheppard could swing down to Kingston Road and enter durham that way.

Also, don't forget that there are two existing railway corridors through Rouge Park. No one is suggesting we cut new paths. Let the environmental assessment do what its supposed to do - assess the impact on the environment.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

No one would use a Sheppard-Kingston line, either! It's a genuinely terrible idea that belongs on fantasy maps and has no place in reality.

 

[RedRocket191]

No one would use a Sheppard-Kingston line, either! It's a genuinely terrible idea that belongs on fantasy maps and has no place in reality.

You're missing the point. Its about providing local connections between Pickering & Toronto. If I live in West Hill or Port Union or Centennial Scarborough, I might prefer to conduct my business at Pickering Town Centre rather than Scarborough Town Centre because its geographically closer. I should have a viable option to get there.

 

[Payback]

Scarberian why are you so condescending about other people's ideas and suggestions? Forcing every commuter in Durham Region to rely on a once or twice per hour GO train to get around anywhere makes no sense. A Sheppard-Kingston transit line (LRT or BRT) is very possible. From Meadowvale the line could swing up pass the Metro Zoo and align itself to the CN railroad to the east of Beare Road. From there it'd follow Sheppard Avenue in Pickering to Whites Rd where it merges with Kingston and can continue northeastwards to Brock via the Town Centre. I thought planning for mass transit expansion entailed creating multiple alternatives for travellers such that they're not going out of their way to access a single rapid service option. Correct me if I'm wrong!

 

[scarberiankhatru]

It seems I'm the only one thinking about people in Scarborough and Pickering. Maybe I think it's a terrible idea to spend billions of dollars on LRT connecting every random point in suburbia because people think it'd look cool on a map. Maybe I envision a world where GO trains run everywhere and very frequently. Maybe I'd rather take a bus, GO or otherwise, that speeds along the 401 rather than sit on a light rail vehicle for an hour. And maybe I'm not alone.

edit - Honestly, we should spend hundreds of millions of dollars on an LRT line so that people in Port Union can get to Pickering Town Centre? What's wrong with the GO line that already connects these places supplemented by a few buses (other than it's not wonderful light rail)? What's so wrong with being practical and realistic now that transit projects are actually being funded and built after years of stalling instead of reaching into the vast well of fantasy maps and pet projects for silly transit projects that look great on maps but may be incredible wastes of money in real life?

 

[Payback]

Okay suppose we do nothing and just improve GO service that'd still run too infrequently to be considered a reliable option. How does that help the residents of northwest Pickering (Woodview, Rougemount) get anywhere in a hurry when they'd have to backtrack to either Pickering GO or Rouge Hill GO to access trains? Surely the highly commercial Kingston Rd corridor needs better than regular local service buses right?

Looking cool on a map is one thing but when the line is actually providing a real service the GO network cannot, that's when it becomes a serious viable alternative. By comparision 905 West is slated for several transit projects that would be competitive with GO services. Why should 905 East be left behind when this alternate line could potentially link several important centres, inclusive of express services downtown via Stoufville GO line?

Metro East Convention Ctr, Pickering Town Centre, Bridgeport Shopping Centre, Rougemount Square, Metro Zoo, Malvern Town Centre, Centennial College, Scarborough Centre- a continuous chain of nodes that the Lakeshore East GO line can never serve.

 

[RedRocket191]

GO trains and buses running every few minutes is what we all want, but its not the only solution to our problems. A GO train or bus is great, but we need alternatives to allow people to travel to and from locations where stations aren't located. For Port Union to Pickering Town Centre, GO would be the best option - but what about Port Union to Kingston & Altona?

It doesn't have to be an LRT, but you cannot deny we need to establish connections - and that's what the whole point of this part of the thread is about.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Then put a bus on Kingston that crosses the border, running every 20 minutes. Problem solved.

There's a huge difference between establishing logical connections and tossing around billions of dollars of transit projects in a grand game of connect the suburban dots.