Transit City Plan

[GraphicMatt]

McGuinty said what politicians are supposed to say. I wouldn't read much into that.

I do like Rainforest's take, though. I think Eglinton is too good a project to kill, and converting it to run subway rolling stock doesn't make much sense because the vehicles are already ordered. SOMETHING inevitably needs to happen with the Scarborough RT. And ultimately perhaps nothing will happen on Sheppard. Depends on far the work gets in the next few months.

 

[Filip]

Scary that you have such a hard on for all things TC....

and keep thinking that Eglinton underground portion will be a subway, it's pretty funny!

And you thinking TC will continue as planned is hilarious!

 

[GraphicMatt]

Now, come on, the most hilarious thing of all is the belief that a gaggle of right-wing governments will bring us any new transit at all.

 

[The Mad Navigator]

And you thinking TC will continue as planned is hilarious!

I never said that.

Sheppard and Eglinton will go as planned.

If you're gonna choose a fantasy world, at least try to make it somewhat believable to everyone else.

 

[Filip]

Now, come on, the most hilarious thing of all is the belief that a gaggle of right-wing governments will bring us any new transit at all.

You may be surprised.

Transit is the #1 priority for Torontonians, even ahead of taxes and other important electorate issues. If Ford, or even Hudak, want to assure their political future, they'll have to bring something to the table. The tables have turned massively, we aren't in the 90s anymore. Transit is a focal issue that needs to be addressed for Toronto to be able to survive the future.

I never said that.

Sheppard and Eglinton will go as planned.

If you're gonna choose a fantasy world, at least try to make it somewhat believable to everyone else.

It will not. I'm willing to bet on it (and already have).

 

[The Mad Navigator]

$100?

Put your money where your mouth is.

 

[Filip]

I never said that.

Sheppard and Eglinton will go as planned.

If you're gonna choose a fantasy world, at least try to make it somewhat believable to everyone else.

$100?

Put your money where your mouth is.

Deal, shall we meet up for beers and exchange info? I'm always in the mood for betting.

 

[GraphicMatt]

You may be surprised.

Transit is the #1 priority for Torontonians, even ahead of taxes and other important electorate issues. If Ford, or even Hudak, want to assure their political future, they'll have to bring something to the table. The tables have turned massively, we aren't in the 90s anymore. Transit is a focal issue that needs to be addressed for Toronto to be able to survive the future.

I'd agree but it certainly wasn't a major focus in Ford's campaign strategy. Every major newspaper called Ford's transit strategy completely hopeless, but it didn't matter. His get-rid-of-streetcars plank polled only single digit support across the city. And yet he won.

Ford won in spite of his transit claims, not because of them.

 

[The Mad Navigator]

Deal, shall we meet up for beers and exchange info? I'm always in the mood for betting.

When the time is right.

 

[Filip]

I'd agree but it certainly wasn't a major focus in Ford's campaign strategy. Every major newspaper called Ford's transit strategy completely hopeless, but it didn't matter. His get-rid-of-streetcars plank polled only single digit support across the city. And yet he won.

Ford won in spite of his transit claims, not because of them.

I still wouldn't put it past him. He said he wants to listen to the communities affected by the main TC lines (Sheppard and Eglinton) and figure out what is it that they want. Now, we all know the answers so it's political masturbation - but he wants to do something for the people. Arguably, he's the most connected to his constituents out of all the councilors. I expect him to be easy to get a hold of, even as mayor, if you have concerns.

 

[Asterix]

You may be surprised.

Transit is the #1 priority for Torontonians, even ahead of taxes and other important electorate issues. If Ford, or even Hudak, want to assure their political future, they'll have to bring something to the table. The tables have turned massively, we aren't in the 90s anymore. Transit is a focal issue that needs to be addressed for Toronto to be able to survive the future.

But you are making a fundamental disconnect in your argument.

On the one hand you say the tables have turned 'massively' and that we've now got conservative (presumably fiscally conservative) leaders. That means they are loathe to spend significant amounts of money, especially since they would need to get that money from taxpayers.

Then you say that they will be bringing tons of transit spending to the table. That just doesn't fly with the cutting of budgets. Subways are huge capital project that would require billions of dollars. Billions of dollars more than planned for TC. Billions of dollars that neither the city nor the province currently has and would have to get from the taxpayer.

And that's not saying anything for the further taxpayers dollars that would have to go towards operating subsidy for these subway lines that aren't at subway demand levels and bringing in enough revenue to cover their significantly higher operating costs than other forms of transit.

So which is it? Are the tables turned to fiscal Scrooges watching every dime and looking to cut wherever they can? Or are they turned to governments that will pour piles and piles of money on subway infrastructure projects?

 

[Rainforest]

As for the vehicles ordered for TC - they could easily be repatriated to other provincial funded LRT programs in Ontario - namely Mississauga, KW and Ottawa.

There is no committed funding for any LRT lines in Mississauga.

Ottawa, KW, and Hamilton - potentially yes. The question is how many vehicles they need, and how many years will pass before they have tracks and stations to deploy those vehicles.

 

[Filip]

There is no committed funding for any LRT lines in Mississauga.

Ottawa, KW, and Hamilton - potentially yes. The question is how many vehicles they need, and how many years will pass before they have tracks and stations to deploy those vehicles.

Yes of course, but I believe the vehicles have only been ordered for the Sheppard line, and considering both Eglinton and Sheppard are quite a while away from opening (2015 and 2020 respectively) I don't think it should present issues. Ottawa alone will need many vehicles as their line is fairly long, much longer than Sheppard.

But you are making a fundamental disconnect in your argument.

On the one hand you say the tables have turned 'massively' and that we've now got conservative (presumably fiscally conservative) leaders. That means they are loathe to spend significant amounts of money, especially since they would need to get that money from taxpayers.

Then you say that they will be bringing tons of transit spending to the table. That just doesn't fly with the cutting of budgets. Subways are huge capital project that would require billions of dollars. Billions of dollars more than planned for TC. Billions of dollars that neither the city nor the province currently has and would have to get from the taxpayer.

And that's not saying anything for the further taxpayers dollars that would have to go towards operating subsidy for these subway lines that aren't at subway demand levels and bringing in enough revenue to cover their significantly higher operating costs than other forms of transit.

So which is it? Are the tables turned to fiscal Scrooges watching every dime and looking to cut wherever they can? Or are they turned to governments that will pour piles and piles of money on subway infrastructure projects?

The Federal cons have been throwing money at transit projects for the past few years. They are now seen as a necessary evil - something that cannot be put off. They understand this, and so do the voters. I'd rather have higher taxes if it meant a growing subway system rather than streetcar lines zigzagging in the suburbs.

 

[Rainforest]

I do like Rainforest's take, though.

My prediction does not match my own preference. I'd rather see Smitherman winning, and SELRT continuing as is. My gutt feeling is that after SELRT gets cancelled, Sheppards subway gets back on the short-list of priorities but never wins the funding contest.

Anyway, what we see is what we get.

 

[Rainforest]

Yes of course, but I believe the vehicles have only been ordered for the Sheppard line, and considering both Eglinton and Sheppard are quite a while away from opening (2015 and 2020 respectively) I don't think it should present issues. Ottawa alone will need many vehicles as their line is fairly long, much longer than Sheppard.

The light rail vehicle order covers vehicles for Eglinton, Sheppard, SLRT, and even the truncated Finch line from Keele to Humber College; 184 cars in total if I am not mistaken.

You are probably right regarding Ottawa. Their downtown tunnel will take long time to build, but once in operation, their LRT system will require a large number of cars to replace the BRT backbone.