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Transit City Plan

Which transit plan do you prefer?

  • Transit City

    Votes: 95 79.2%
  • Ford City

    Votes: 25 20.8%

  • Total voters
    120
Thanks Keithz for the response you gave to this guy. Couldn't have put it better myself.

I am talking solely about the conversion of the current SRT, and not any extensions. But let's play the cost-neutral game. For 1.2 Billion,you are extending the S(L)RT to Malvern, and will serve Centennial College, essentially allowing riders the option of not having to transfer at STC. What are you getting with the subway? Still the same annoying transfer at STC to slow buses. I fail to see the benefit at this point in time.

The LRT is going to be mostly grade-separated, and larger vehicles. Capacity will be doubled. Tell me why a technology derided by so many citizens is preferable? The last time I rode the SRT, I remember I could barely hear my Ipod due to the noise. Has that issue been addressed yet?

The extension will serve nothing, nada, no one. It's textbook Transfer City 101. Placing the new LRT stations in such out-of-place locales that customers have difficulty transfer to/from the S(L)RT from/to the local connecting buses, is what the route as presented to the public precisely does. Bellamy Station midway in-between Ellesmere and Progress translates to prolonged walking times for transferees. "Markham" Station near Progress/Progress Gt is quite a jog both for102 Markham Rd bus passengers and Centennial College students to get to. At least the bus service ran directly into the campus. No Milner Station for the 132 to connect with when in the 1990s this was considered a vital location for a stop. Sheppard East Station in an odd spot to cause all sorts of detours and backtracks in order for one to complete their journey into Malvern. If I were heading to McLevin/Neilson, I'd just stick with the 133 even if it takes longer. I least I know that its direct.

What are we getting with the subway you ask? Let's see: new stations that penetrate even deeper into Scarborough. A Brimley-Eglinton Station would alleviate Kennedy and redirect several routes (12, 21, 116; 16) to that location instead. The bottlenecks between Markham and Kennedy Stn are ridiculous, so at least this will take multiple buses off Eglinton during rush hour through that stretch. McCowan-Lawrence Station which covers the hospital and the Bendale community quite well and is within 5 minutes drive of the heavily populated, major residential-commercial area of Cedarbrae-Woburn. Lastly but perhaps most importantly a direct Toronto City Centre to Scarborough City Centre link using subways, transfer-free east of Bloor-Yonge. Think of how much extra business such a move would attract to Scarbrough knowing that people go where access to fast, reliable transit is greatest.

Buses are only slow where you fail to put them into private ROWs. Their carrying capacity can go up in such case as demonstrative with several BRT systems throughout Europe, Latin America and the Far East. I've had the pleasure of riding a biarticulated bus before which can carry upto 275 passengers (that's 15 more people than a 2-car Transit City LRT trainset), and let me tell you, the seats were padded and spacious with ample legroom, there was LCD display for travel arrival times, A/C on-board, next station announcements, prepaid boarding which allowed for shorter dwell times and shorter overall travel times, etc. To implement such a thing adjacent to the 401 through Scarbrough to get customers to/from major destinations such as Malvern, UTSC and West Hill as fast or even faster than LRT would not cost billions of dollars or even a billion and could be completed within a couple of years maximum if the York U busway is any indication of how quickly BRT Busways can be built. However since the TTC, and apparently you, feel as though riding buses is beneath the public, they'll continue to hold the entire city ransom by refusing to make any improvements to the transit service until the Premier caves into their demands. An illusion of saliency.
 
Eglinton will probably work well as is proposed. I'd support an eventual Bloor extension in the West though Mississauga would need to get on board and tell us what they want and how they're paying for it. In the East, I think a Scarborough LRT network is shaping up nicely and could be quite advantageous.

Unfortunately it won't. Eglinton, moreso than the other 7 Transit City corrdiors needs to be built as a crosstown subway. Major cities need affordable rapid transit options for the citizenry to get the airport. Blue 22 doesn't cut it, neither does ECLRT on the rapid front. Considering that the circuitous, meandering Eringate-ACC-Silver Dart route is where over $1 billion of the expense of the whole line is stemming from (i.e. sprawl where hardly anyone outside the 9-5 rush hour crowd will benefit from); that needs to be cut from the plan. There's also too many mixed-traffic surface stops and not enough stops in the underground/grade-seaparated section. Why twin the Caledonia bus with the GO line into one station when they're catering to totally different niches? I know that subway construction is pricy and incremental building runs the risk of producing subway stubs, but at least piecemeal expansion can be fully integrated into the subway network allowing for interlining and ease of transfer between lines. I think that starting the Eglinton subway first with a line from Allen to PIA is the correct move and would garner a lot of support from Toronto, York and Etobicoke residents. Likewise in the east extend the Bloor-Danforth to Scarbrough Ctr but also have a branch running to Kingston Rd such that people from eastern Scarbrough can say that they have a direct commuter line heading right across the city. Then in the future the City can gradually fill in the middle section between Allen and Kennedy.
 
In case you forgot, the subway (see dictionary definition for the word "subway") tunnels for the Eglinton Crosstown LRT is being built to both light rail and heavy rail dimensions. Should it ever be converted to heavy rail, the subway tunnels can handle them without more digging. As well, the stations will have the length available for the a heavy rail train, also without additional digging. The only work needed for any conversion is the raising of the low level station platform to a high level platform.

attachment.php


The initial design is for 2 low-floor light rail vehicle train. It can be expanded to a 3 car LRV train. With additional work, it can be reworked for up to 5 LRV train or a six car heavy rail train.
 
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Unfortunately it won't. Eglinton, moreso than the other 7 Transit City corrdiors needs to be built as a crosstown subway. Major cities need affordable rapid transit options for the citizenry to get the airport. Blue 22 doesn't cut it, neither does ECLRT on the rapid front. Considering that the circuitous, meandering Eringate-ACC-Silver Dart route is where over $1 billion of the expense of the whole line is stemming from (i.e. sprawl where hardly anyone outside the 9-5 rush hour crowd will benefit from); that needs to be cut from the plan. There's also too many mixed-traffic surface stops and not enough stops in the underground/grade-seaparated section. Why twin the Caledonia bus with the GO line into one station when they're catering to totally different niches? I know that subway construction is pricy and incremental building runs the risk of producing subway stubs, but at least piecemeal expansion can be fully integrated into the subway network allowing for interlining and ease of transfer between lines. I think that starting the Eglinton subway first with a line from Allen to PIA is the correct move and would garner a lot of support from Toronto, York and Etobicoke residents. Likewise in the east extend the Bloor-Danforth to Scarbrough Ctr but also have a branch running to Kingston Rd such that people from eastern Scarbrough can say that they have a direct commuter line heading right across the city. Then in the future the City can gradually fill in the middle section between Allen and Kennedy.

The airport connection is not the reason-for-being of the Eglinton LRT, and in fact was tacked on after-the-fact. Sacrificing local service to better serve the airport is not very well thought out. How many times a year do you go to the airport?
 
But for an Eglinton LRT to have enough speed to actually be of use on the corridor, it'll have to "sacrifice local service" anyways. A subway would just make it a lot faster, a lot more reliable, and give it no capacity concerns.
 
You would have thought the complaints of not enough stations on the ECLRT would have nullified any arguments in favour of speed.
 
but you are over looking the best part, it would only cost a few extra billion dollars
For the subway section? Probably not ... might even be cheaper, because the subway tunnels are about 0.2 metres less in diameter than what they are planning for the LRT. Though the bigger stations and more complex signalling might balance out.
 
For the subway section? Probably not ... might even be cheaper, because the subway tunnels are about 0.2 metres less in diameter than what they are planning for the LRT. Though the bigger stations and more complex signalling might balance out.

For the whole thing out to Pearson I mean, which it what it seemed like second in pie was referring to.
 
Justin,

I would love to hear your defence of the LRT conversion in response to what I wrote in post #2363. Since you apparently know Scarborough and Malvern (the neighbourhood I grew up and spent a third of my life in) better than me, I'd to love to get your wisdom on why the refurbished line, as proposed, works. And do feel free to cite your sources. I am particularly interested in your thoughts on why its good to have no stops on Markham Road or on Milner or to you know actually reach the centre of Malvern.
 
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The airport connection is not the reason-for-being of the Eglinton LRT, and in fact was tacked on after-the-fact. Sacrificing local service to better serve the airport is not very well thought out. How many times a year do you go to the airport?

Dismissing the total number of people whom would rely on a subway to the airport on a daily basis is not very well thought out. It's hair-brained! Though from the TTC I've come to expect no less.

YYZ is currently the 20th busiest airport by aircraft movements in the world. In 2008, it handled 32.3 million passengers and 429,262 aircraft movements. This breaks down to 2.4 million average passengers per month or 80,000 per day. Another 40,000-50,000 work in the general vincinity. Both Malton (population: 36,400) and Rexdale (population: 108,501) are only a short bus ride away via the highway, as well Humber College North which has over 68,000 fuill-time and part-time students. OLG Slots at Woodbine Racetrack attracts millions of visitors each year. In short, anyone whose against a Dixon-Eglinton aligned subway, is against progress.

Just like how we have the 109, 97 and 85A; we can have a parallel bus service through Richview to mind the gaps. If you bothered to look at a TTC system map, you'd notice that every midblock along Eglinton through that stretch is already served by a route other than the 32 bus alone. There's the 405 and 73A which route closer to where people actually live and can provide them with at-the-door service. What more could you or the dozen or so people daily which depend on those stops ask for?
 
You would have thought the complaints of not enough stations on the ECLRT would have nullified any arguments in favour of speed.

You can balance out adding a stop to the tunneled section by taking out several of the unnecessary surface stops along the way. 41 stops can easily be trimmed down to 30 and still benefit every community along the route.
 
The airport connection is not the reason-for-being of the Eglinton LRT, and in fact was tacked on after-the-fact. Sacrificing local service to better serve the airport is not very well thought out. How many times a year do you go to the airport?

There is more local service value on Martin Grove and Dixon than Eglinton west of Martin Grove and Silver Dart.
 
Justin,

I would love to hear your defence of the LRT conversion in response to what I wrote in post #2363. Since you apparently know Scarborough and Malvern (the neighbourhood I grew up and spent a third of my life in) better than me, I'd to love to get your wisdom on why the refurbished line, as proposed, works. And do feel free to cite your sources. I am particularly interested in your thoughts on why its good to have no stops on Markham Road or on Milner or to you know actually reach the centre of Malvern.

Was in FME Software training for the past 2 days. More important than arguing with subways advocates. I really do not want to spend time replying to a drawn out rant with dubious assumptions about ridership, and capacity. Yo';re going to have to wait when I have time to write a longer relpy.

A short one for now:

For the price of a subway to STC, you are able to extend the LRT to Malvern, with integration with the Sheppard LRT. There is little chance you would be able to convince Malvern residents that a subway to STC, a fair distance away serves their needs better than stations in their neighbourhood that will provide direct access to STC anyways.

I did not design the alignment, the TTC did, and I agree the alignment is poor. Does not justify a subway. If the TTC actually sat down, and designed an alignment to utilize the benefits of LRT, your concerns would be addressed. You pointed out the limitations of ICTS, and to a small extent subway technology. They are not as accessible as LRT.

You may be from Malvern, but you do not speak for all of Malvern:

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=116352265057733

Just a small example, there were guests from Scarborough at the Public Transit Coalition meeting.

Some people see the benefit of the S(L)RT to Malvern. I have not heard an argument for a subway to STC in quite a while now. For all your rants, and dubious assumptions about a subway to STC, there seems to be a growing movement for LRT to Malvern instead. Interesting, eh?

So in short: Subway to STC, not going to happen. SRT conversion to LRT, will most likely will happen, still provides benefits to riders going to STC, and traveling past STC.

You can keep on writing long-winded rants if you want though.
 

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