Transit City: Finch-Sheppard Corridor

[Dan416]

I don't think residents along Sheppard would appreciate their subway being downgraded to LRT. I think that would be the stupidest waste of money imaginable. Use that money to make the Sheppard line more useful and actually reach its intended destination instead.

 

[afransen]

Rather than modifying the subway, why not just use surface LRT? If the subway is too expensive, mothball it for now.

 

[Voltz]

I don't think residents along Sheppard would appreciate their subway being downgraded to LRT. I think that would be the stupidest waste of money imaginable. Use that money to make the Sheppard line more useful and actually reach its intended destination instead.

Explain this to me, what is the difference, to riders, between a subway car and a modern low floor light rail vehicle with level platform boarding?

Yes, it would have lower potential capacity, but there is not one shred of real evidence that a full capacity subway line (besides scarberian's endless rants about the subway sprouting a mini-dubai like forrest of skyscrapers) will be needed.

I think building the sheppard line in the first place was the stupidest waste of money imaginable, they spent a billion dollars to build transit service, where they dam well knew it was not needed, and to the one place in the city where almost everyone can afford not to take transit.

 

[waterloowarrior]

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Should I post pics of some of the other tens of thousands of condo units under construction or proposed for the Sheppard corridor?

 

[unimaginative2]

It would likely be possible to convert the subway with out shutting it down, by first using one track for the subway between bayview and don mills while the other side is converted, then having a cross platform transfer at Bessarion, then cut the subway back to bayview, and so on until finished. I am assuming that they would just raise the tracks to platform height at stations, and since LRT and subway tracks are the same, the tracks in the tunnels would not need to be modified.

That's a poor assumption since LRVs with their pantographs and catenary require even more overhead clearance than subways. You'd have to rebuild the entire station if you tried raising the tracks, requiring even longer shutdowns and tens of millions of dollars.

Im not suggesting this because its my favorite type of transit vehicle, but because it would provide better service, since I don't see the sheppard line being extended for a very long time, if ever. If it does happen to get full then they can start another line on finch.

The only reason the Sheppard line isn't being extended is because of people who see streetcars as their favourite type of vehicle. The province has been funding every rapid transit project that municipal governments support. On Eglinton, they've been virtually shoving higher order transit down the city's thoat.

 

[Voltz]

Should I post pics of some of the other tens of thousands of condo units under construction or proposed for the Sheppard corridor?

how about the actual numbers of those new residents who will take transit, and of those the numbers who will take the sheppard line in the peak direction during rush hour.

I know exactly what is being built. I work in the condo business, one of the developments I was at is next to an existing GO and subway station. I saw many more people come and go in their cars than walk 75m to the station. and that development was not next to two major highways.

In that development above, lets say that 15,000 people live there(last I heard there will be 10,000 units) and 30% take transit regularly(a rather generous number considering the higher end prices of those condos) , so thats 4500 people. If all 4500 people where to get on the subway in the peak direction during a 2 hour window in rush hour, then the TTC just might need to add an extra train, and bring the head way down to around 5.5 minutes instead of six. And the ridership would still be well below the 10,000 per hour subway threshold.

Since I was clearly over estimating the transit ridership in the above situation, it would be safe to say that that I am not wrong

 

[unimaginative2]

Yeah, and when the subway is twice as long and finally reaches its ultimate destination, ridership will soar even higher. Oh, and those "thresholds" are completely artificial constructs that the TTC recently developed to justify LRT construction. They're particularly absurd since they plug the same "demand" numbers in to compare all the different technology options, as if the demand is the same for a subway and a bus in a bus lane.

Converting Sheppard to LRT would cost hundreds of millions and require a long shutdown. The whole length of tunnels may have to be rebuilt to accommodate the overhead catenary. All this to replace a popular subway with a lower-capacity, lower-quality system that would be near full on the day that it opens? Uh, no.

 

[Voltz]

That's a poor assumption since LRVs with their pantographs and catenary require even more overhead clearance than subways. You'd have to rebuild the entire station if you tried raising the tracks, requiring even longer shutdowns and tens of millions of dollars.

as I said before I would only prefer the conversion if the cost is reasonable and delays minimal.

And as far as I can tell the stations, other than sheppard-young, have plenty of height clearance to raise the tracks. And I have been told that the tunnels are large enough to allow for pantographs, except for a few short box tunnel sections, where they would use a new type of track construction that is closer to the floor.

 

[Rainforest]

It appears that effectively, 4 options for Finch-Sheppard corridor are being discussed in this thread, rather than just 2. Therefore, let me upgrade the classification:

1A. LRT solution, with Finch W LRT and Sheppard E LRT connected via Finch E and Seneca College. Sheppard subway is not converted to LRT, but is not extended.

1B. LRT solution, with Finch W LRT and Sheppard E LRT connected via the tunnel of former Sheppard subway. Sheppard subway is converted to LRT.

2A. Subway-LRT combo solution, with Finch W LRT ending at Yonge, Sheppard subway extended and running from Downsview to Kennedy / Agincourt, Sheppard E LRT running east of Agincourt. Subway from Agincourt to STC deferred.

2B. Subway-LRT combo solution, with Finch W LRT ending at Yonge, Sheppard subway extended and running from Downsview all the way to STC. No Sheppard E LRT (bus service on Sheppard east of Agincourt).

My take on those options:

Is there a case for Sheppard subway extension?

Based on ridership projections only, Sheppard subway is not required as LRT will be able to handle the demand.

However, choosing technology just on ridership projections is too simplistic. Several factors have to be taken into account: ridership for sure, but also speed, growth potential, and network impact of the given route.

There is no alternative fast E-W route at the Finch/Sheppard "altitude". (In contrast, Eglinton competes with Bloor subway for some trips, and has CPR's North Toronto rail not far away.) Apparently, a very good growth potential exists on Sheppard E east of Don Mills. Finally, the westerly extension of Sheppard subway would create a link between Yonge and Spadina lines, hence: a) Passengers will be able to quickly move between the two lines; b) Trains can shortcut from Wilson yard to the north of Yonge line.

Speaking of costs, subway will obviously be more expensive, but the creation of a continuous LRT line won't be cheap, either. Adding up $700 m for Finch W LRT, $800 m for Sheppard E LRT, and at least $500 m to connect them, we need about $2 B for the the whole corridor. (I do not actually have estimates for the connecting section, but it will be a nontrivial amount. For example, Sheppard West between Yonge and West Don river is too narrow for surface LRT.)

Subway-LRT combo (let's estimate 2A) will require about $3.7 B ($ 2.5 B for subway extension, $700 m for Finch W LRT, and $500 m for shorter Sheppard E LRT).

So, I take 2 over 1.

Is there a need for Sheppard E LRT east of Kennedy, in case Sheppard subway is extended?

I find it surprising that several correspondents dismiss the potential of that LRT route. If it offers a short ride to a popular subway line (extended Sheppard) and to Stouffville GO (too bad it is not designated as frequent Express in the present version of RTP, but even then ...), the areas that route runs through will be appealing for developers. Changes in zoning bylaws will come alone.

So, I take 2A over 2B.

Notwithstanding the above, if Metrolinx / TTC rule against the Sheppard subway extension, what is the best way to connect Finch W LRT and Sheppard E LRT?

In that case, I'd rather see 1A (connecting via Finch E and Seneca College) than 1B (conversion of Sheppard subway to LRT). There are several reasons, but the main is that 1A will create more transit infrastructure than 1B, for virtually same cost.

 

[kEiThZ]

^I don't think it would cost 500 million to connect Finch and Sheppard. If you were to run down Finch to Vic Park and back west on Sheppard it'd be 10km, so at worst 400 million. There's alternatives, like using Seneca Hills Drive to build a loop from the edge of Seneca to Don Mills and using the Don Mills line to get to Sheppard. That would probably get the cost down to 350 million. Anyway, I don't know if it's essential to connect those lines. The only travel scenario which benefits is if someone is traveling westbound along Sheppard to any point between 404 and Yonge. Connecting the lines hardly benefits eastbound travelers. And westbound travelers would still face additional transfer on both Finch and Sheppard if they wanted to pick up speed by using LRT or the subway.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

Explain this to me, what is the difference, to riders, between a subway car and a modern low floor light rail vehicle with level platform boarding?

None, absolutely none. An underground LRT vehicle at full capacity is just as good as a half-empty T1 car to existing subway-boarders. Not only would the line start to turn a profit in the existing catchment, but the extension out towards Malvern would attract thousands more riders, including car-owning first-time transit converts.

Yes, it would have lower potential capacity, but there is not one shred of real evidence that a full capacity subway line (besides scarberian's endless rants about the subway sprouting a mini-dubai like forrest of skyscrapers) will be needed.

Thank you. This is the best method of correcting the HRT mistake. Like I said earlier, the new fleet of LRT vehicles can come equipped with retractible pantographs to clear the ceilings of the Sheppard Line tunnels. Jane, Don Mils and Crosstown will also require similar technological modifications for their underground sections. The only disadvantage in doing this is that some speed of service is lost if routed in mixed low-floor/high-floor (platform level) configurations. But trains naturally decelerate when approaching stops anyway, so.

Extending Sheppard Line to SCC would be an errorenously gross neglience of funds; especially when BD extensions, Eglinton and Queen-DRL lines aren't even priorities yet. No matter how many condos get built along Sheppard (or any major arterial for that matter) it will never stimulate the type of organic, multigenerational growth of an urban centre like the downtown. Thus patronage will continue to stream in via feeder routes, NOT walk-in customers, for many decades to come.

I think building the sheppard line in the first place was the stupidest waste of money imaginable, they spent a billion dollars to build transit service, where they dam well knew it was not needed, and to the one place in the city where almost everyone can afford not to take transit.

This is why I praise the Metrolinx initiative. With decision-makings like these, the brass at City Hall and TTC headquarters have surely lost their minds.

 

[Rainforest]

^I don't think it would cost 500 million to connect Finch and Sheppard. If you were to run down Finch to Vic Park and back west on Sheppard it'd be 10km, so at worst 400 million. There's alternatives, like using Seneca Hills Drive to build a loop from the edge of Seneca to Don Mills and using the Don Mills line to get to Sheppard. That would probably get the cost down to 350 million.

Maybe, but I am not so sure. I surveyed Finch E, and it looks like some parts are not wide enough for surface LRT. In particular, short tunnel sections might be needed just east of Yonge, and through the hill between Bayview and Leslie.

Anyway, I don't know if it's essential to connect those lines. The only travel scenario which benefits is if someone is traveling westbound along Sheppard to any point between 404 and Yonge. Connecting the lines hardly benefits eastbound travelers. And westbound travelers would still face additional transfer on both Finch and Sheppard if they wanted to pick up speed by using LRT or the subway.

Transit City plan had separate Finch W and Sheppard E lines with no connector. However, Metrolinx talks about a Corridor there, so they feel it is important for some reason.

 

[kEiThZ]

There's also the consideration of a downgrade if Sheppard is being really underutilized. It would cost in the order of 250-300 million to continue the Sheppard E LRT on the surface to Yonge. The subway could be retained as an express line or it could be scrapped...the latter more likely. There's also the issue of speed in a downgrade. If we keep it to the surface and get rid of the Sheppard bus...Average speed drops from roughly 50km/h in the subway to 25km/h for grade separated LRT. That only adds about 6.5 mins for the length of the current subway. I don't think that much of a drop in travel time would suddenly cause a large amount of riders to head back to the car....and that's not for everyone. The closer you are to either end, the less the time added in one direction at least and you gain from no transfer on the east end. And if you have to take a bus to get to the subway, there too there's time gains from negating the transfer since about 16 new stops would probably be added.

To recap, a downgrade of the Sheppard subway to surface LRT would probably add about 6.5 mins and cost around 300 million. I dunno how much would be saved from getting rid of bus routes on Sheppard and subway O&M but it might well make up the 300 million in a few years....

 

[Rainforest]

Extending Sheppard Line to SCC would be an errorenously gross neglience of funds; especially when BD extensions, Eglinton and Queen-DRL lines aren't even priorities yet.

DRL should have been #1, too bad it is deferred. However, I think that extending Sheppard beats both BD extensions and Eglinton subway.

No matter how many condos get built along Sheppard (or any major arterial for that matter) it will never stimulate the type of organic, multigenerational growth of an urban centre like the downtown. Thus patronage will continue to stream in via feeder routes, NOT walk-in customers, for many decades to come.

I guess neither transit solution can stimulate an emergence of another downtown-like area, simply because many factors are needed for such development and transit is just one of them.

For passengers coming from feeder routes, subway trunk route is preferable as it runs faster. The way Sheppard LRT has been designed, it will be a good premium local service, but is unlikely to attract many transfer passengers. If their origin is closer to Finch or Ellesmere than to Sheppard, they will simply take a bus all the way to Yonge.