Transit City: Finch-Sheppard Corridor

[Rainforest]

In the draft of its Regional Transportation Plan, Metrolinx designated “Finch/Sheppard rapid transit from Pearson Airport to Scarborough Centre and Meadowvale” as one of priorities.

Metrolinx wants to “explore approaches to connect the Finch line directly to the Sheppard line for improved connectivity, including a connection via Don Mills and a connection at a western extension of the Sheppard subway.”

What is the best layout for that transit corridor across the north of 416?

I heard / read several proposals regarding that layout. Of those, two sound most appealing to me:

1) LRT–based scheme: Finch West LRT continues east of Yonge, crosses Don Mills, serves Seneca College, then crosses 404 and turns south, to reach Sheppard near Consumers.

Advantages:
- Less expensive than most of other options
- Creates a truly Crosstown LRT line
- LRT service to Seneca from both West and East

Disadvantages:
- Speed won’t be stellar and that undermines the Crosstown function. For example, the distance from Finch / Kipling to Sheppard / Markham Rd will be about 29 km; at 22 kph, the trip will take 80 min. It will take even longer if one has to take a bus to reach Finch, and another bus to connect from Sheppard to the destination.
- The existing slice of Sheppard subway will become somewhat of a joke, and it is not clear how the bus service along the rest of Finch E (east of Seneca) should be organized.

2) Subway–LRT combo scheme: Sheppard subway gets extended to Kennedy/Agincourt Stn in the east and to Downsview (or Wilson) in the west; Sheppard LRT runs east of Agincourt; Finch LRT is built as per Transit City plan, up to Yonge.

Technically this won’t create a continuous rail line across the north of 401, but many E-W trips will be improved through the combined use of Sheppard subway and Spadina subway. For example: Steeles / Islington to UTSC: bus to Steeles West Stn, subway to Downsview, another subway to Kennedy, bus to UTSC via Ellesmere. I assume that buses serving the outer portions of Finch E and Ellesmere, would operate off the Sheppard subway terminus.

Advantages of this scheme:
- Accelerates many E-W trips (probably greater proportion than LRT would)
- Better taps the growth potential of Sheppard East
- The westerly subway extension creates a link between Yonge and Spadina subways, and will help coping with service disruptions

Disadvantages:
- Higher cost
- More transfers than with the LRT scheme

What is your take?

 

[kEiThZ]

I like option 1. A plan with lower costs and fewer transfers....I am sold! As for the Sheppard subway...they should convert it to LRT if they aren't going to extend that to STC.

Anyways, I vote 1. I hate stubways.

 

[catcher_of_cats]

Option 2 is not a stubway if it runs from Downsview to Kennedy. It will still need to be connected to SSC though, which this plan allows for when fantasy funding arrives in the future.

 

[DavidH]

2) Subway–LRT combo scheme: Sheppard subway gets extended to Kennedy/Agincourt Stn in the east and to Downsview (or Wilson) in the west; Sheppard LRT runs east of Agincourt; Finch LRT is built as per Transit City plan, up to Yonge.

Where have you heard this from? There is no discussion in the RTP about an eastward extension of the Sheppard subway, although they do muse about a possible westward extension to Downsview.

 

[mastershake]

I'm also curious to hear if option 2 is really being considered. It seems to make too much sense.

Downsview to Kennedy would very useful. The 190 rocket between Kennedy/Sheppard to STC would be a pretty quick trip, and the subway could eventually be extended to STC once more funding comes along, rather than abandoning Sheppard to be a stubway forever like in option 1.

Would LRT even be necessary past Kennedy or McCowan? I think an express bus along sheppard from Kennedy, with a stop at UTSC would be more than enough.

 

[Rainforest]

Where have you heard this from? There is no discussion in the RTP about an eastward extension of the Sheppard subway, although they do muse about a possible westward extension to Downsview.

This option is not from the Draft RTP, but I read it on one of transit forums. Do not remember who the originator was.

I think that if the westward extension to Downsview is going to happen, it adds appeal to the eastward extension.

Would LRT even be necessary past Kennedy or McCowan? I think an express bus along sheppard from Kennedy, with a stop at UTSC would be more than enough.

First of all, it would be hard for the city to backtrack on its Sheppard LRT promise to the outer parts of Scarborough. However, upgrading part of that route to subway and retaining the rest as LRT might be feasible.

Even politics aside, IMO that LRT will be useful even if it is not loaded to the brim. Single vehicles can be used if two-car trains are not needed yet. It will be more comfortable and slightly faster than the bus, ROW speed advantage likely growing in future as more cars hit the road. Development potential exists Kennedy to McCowan and east of Morningside. Plus, there might be more passengers from the existing population if the transit becomes more convenient.

UTSC is on Ellesmere not Sheppard, so those will likely be two different routes.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

The most logical course of action would be to connect both LRT lines via YUS and Sheppard subways. Depending on the depth of the Yonge Line between Finch and Sheppard, a secondary tunnel could be built on top of or adjacent to the existing tracks. As for the Sheppard Line, conversion to LRT is possible if the LRT vehicles selected come with retractible pantograph catenaries (for the overhead wires) that would be adaptable to both the underground and at-grade portions of the line. For instance:

The Finch East option however is problematic because it will likely turn the "stubway" into a white elephant, since the bulk majority of riders would be bypassing it altogether. At least utilizing the existing tunnels ensures it will still serve a purpose and have the added benefit of running through the heart of NYCC en route (the LRT stops could literally mirror YUS through this section with stops at all three: Finch, NYC and Sheppard).

 

[Hipster Duck]

I'd vote for Option 2. I dislike LRTs (especially Transit City types) as a long-distance commuting choice (well, actually, I dislike LRTs period), I think the Finch bus works perfectly fine, and this is a chance for the Sheppard subway to be a real high capacity northern cross-town route. Of course, if you're going to run the Sheppard subway as far as Agincourt, why not just run it 2 km further to STC? Oh, right, because we have to undermine the justification for a subway at all cost.

 

[Rainforest]

I'd vote for Option 2. I dislike LRTs (especially Transit City types) as a long-distance commuting choice (well, actually, I dislike LRTs period), I think the Finch bus works perfectly fine, and this is a chance for the Sheppard subway to be a real high capacity northern cross-town route.

The choice between Option 1 and 2 is not obvious, but I am leaning towards 2.

Of course, if you're going to run the Sheppard subway as far as Agincourt, why not just run it 2 km further to STC?

This is a very natural question to ask (although that would be more like 3 km, as the subway won't run on straight line).

I think that the Agincourt - STC section is not essential for the vitality of Option 2, but will add to its cost considerably (extra 3 km X 250 M per km = 750 M). Therefore, for the sake of comparing concepts, I selected the strongest subway-LRT combo option versus the strongest LRT-based option.

At the same time, nothing prevents adding the STC extension as a separate, future project, in case Option 2 is selected for Sheppard now.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I'd vote for Option 2. I dislike LRTs (especially Transit City types) as a long-distance commuting choice (well, actually, I dislike LRTs period), I think the Finch bus works perfectly fine, and this is a chance for the Sheppard subway to be a real high capacity northern cross-town route. Of course, if you're going to run the Sheppard subway as far as Agincourt, why not just run it 2 km further to STC? Oh, right, because we have to undermine the justification for a subway at all cost.

I agree and I'll add that a Finch East bus transfer at Don Mills punishes far more people than would be helped by being able to "travel crosstown" (a largely theoretical group of riders). It also retains the transfer onto the Sheppard subway. The only people that really benefit from Option 1 are people that go to Seneca.

 

[mastershake]

Depending on the depth of the Yonge Line between Finch and Sheppard, a secondary tunnel could be built on top of or adjacent to the existing tracks.

That would be a really expensive solution to provide a one seat ride from the east to the west. I don't think a small transfer at Yonge street would be that much of an inconvenience. I doubt this is very technically feasible either, since it would be quite a narrow turning radius from Sheppard north to Yonge.

UTSC is on Ellesmere not Sheppard, so those will likely be two different routes.

I know that, but I think express routes should serve major intersections and trip generators. An east/west express bus could head down morningside to get to UTSC (and could possibly go through the highland creek area, and continue down to Kingston road and into pickering). There isn't much on Sheppard East of Morningside is there?

 

[Rainforest]

The most logical course of action would be to connect both LRT lines via YUS and Sheppard subways. Depending on the depth of the Yonge Line between Finch and Sheppard, a secondary tunnel could be built on top of or adjacent to the existing tracks. As for the Sheppard Line, conversion to LRT is possible if the LRT vehicles selected come with retractible pantograph catenaries (for the overhead wires) that would be adaptable to both the underground and at-grade portions of the line.

Threading Finch LRT to Sheppard along Yonge is an interesting idea, I have not heard that before.

However, if an LRT-based solution is to be selected, I think that Option 1 ("Finch E - Seneca bypass") is superior to the Sheppard subway-to-LRT conversion:

- The cost will likely be similar, since threading Finch LRT to Sheppard would require at least 2 km of tunnel, and converting the subway will cost some money. For Finch E LRT extension, some tunneling may be needed but most of it can (hopefully) be placed on surface.

- While "Finch E - Seneca bypass" will create overcapacity between Yonge and Don Mills, subway-to-LRT conversion might create undercapacity in future. Undercapacity really hurts while overcapacity is odd but harmless. Plus, the conversion won't be nice to those who settled, and perhaps bought property, in the vicinity of Sheppard subway, expecting that it is there to stay.

- If Sheppard subway is bypassed but retained, it has a chance of being incorporated into something more useful in future, for example become a part of 401 regional express line. If it is converted, then it is gone (and why sustain the loss if it does not result in any capital saving).

- The subway-to-LRT conversion means no new service to Seneca College (and again, no capital saving to make for that loss).

The only advantage of subway-to-LRT conversion is some saving on operating expenses, but I doubt that it overweights the above points.

 

[Rainforest]

There isn't much on Sheppard East of Morningside is there?

There are townhouses in the area, I saw them en route to the Zoo. And, the area looks like more highrises can be added, although I am not familiar with the development plans.

 

[drum118]

The most logical course of action would be to connect both LRT lines via YUS and Sheppard subways. Depending on the depth of the Yonge Line between Finch and Sheppard, a secondary tunnel could be built on top of or adjacent to the existing tracks. As for the Sheppard Line, conversion to LRT is possible if the LRT vehicles selected come with retractible pantograph catenaries (for the overhead wires) that would be adaptable to both the underground and at-grade portions of the line. For instance:



The Finch East option however is problematic because it will likely turn the "stubway" into a white elephant, since the bulk majority of riders would be bypassing it altogether. At least utilizing the existing tunnels ensures it will still serve a purpose and have the added benefit of running through the heart of NYCC en route (the LRT stops could literally mirror YUS through this section with stops at all three: Finch, NYC and Sheppard).

You cannot build above the Sheppard line at Yonge as it above the Yonge line as well there is no room. Next to no room above the Yonge line from Finch to Sheppard.

The Finch line needs to run the full length of Finch from Day one.

TTC is talking about extending the subway west to Downsview and that a waste of money at this time. Better off converting the subway to LRT and run it the full length of Sheppard. You would then connect Picking to the airport.

If one look at ridership numbers for 301, it is nearing LRT requirements. Other than removing a lane of traffic off Yonge, you can run an LRT on top of the subway. OH!!!!>>>>>>>My parking spot is lost and I have only one lane to travel in that is bumper to bumper can be heard.

Since there is talk about extending the Finch line over to Don Mills, just keep going east. Ridership will drop for Sheppard some what, but it will be off set over time.

Finch will see a drop in ridership at Yonge once the subway goes north.

The other idea is taking a line down Dufferin St to Sheppard-Yonge. Therefore reinforce the conversion of the subway to LRT as well extending the line west to the airport.

 

[unimaginative2]

I think that the Agincourt - STC section is not essential for the vitality of Option 2, but will add to its cost considerably (extra 3 km X 250 M per km = 750 M). Therefore, for the sake of comparing concepts, I selected the strongest subway-LRT combo option versus the strongest LRT-based option.

At the same time, nothing prevents adding the STC extension as a separate, future project, in case Option 2 is selected for Sheppard now.

There is absolutely no reason why (a) subways should cost $250 million per kilometre or (b) the segment east of Kennedy couldn't be built mostly above ground. It could follow the creekbed until it meets the existing RT alignment, and then follow the RT alignment eastward to STC, ideally with the RT having been replaced with an extension of the Bloor Danforth line.

For the person that talked about subways being built when "fantasy funding" arrives...Fantasy Funding has arrived! We're getting $60 billion dollars. We're getting bus rapid transit (or more) through farmers' fields way out in Durham region. We're getting 5 "rapid transit" connections to Pickering. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever why a sensible subway extension like finishing Sheppard to STC couldn't be built with the funds available.

I obviously prefer Option 2, though it would be crazy not to just finish the subway to STC. I also find the value of the streetcar east of Agincourt to be quite dubious. Anybody who knows the area will tell you that there really isn't much on Sheppard east of Kennedy, and certainly not much that wouldn't already be served by the multitude of dollar-sign-shaped routes in that part of Scarborough.