Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[Second_in_pie]

^^ Have you actually looked at the number of passengers coming from York Region? Combine with that the number of people who'll be attracted by an even more convenient subway and you have... a really big number of people.

EDIT: Oh sorry, you're talking about off-peak. Have you even been on Viva Blue? There's actually articulated busloads of people using it even now, while it's merely a bus with an express route and large stop spacing. Imagine a) how many people in Thornhill will use it once it's subway, and b) how many people will be more enticed to take a BRT bus from Elgin Mills or Major Mac to Langstaff, then a significantly shorter ride to their destination.

Doubledit: To make that clear, there are busloads of people off-peak.

 

[Ansem]

For the record, the Paris Metro actually does leave city limits on many of its lines, and has since the 1930s. Lines 1, 3, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, and 13 have stations outside city limits and some of those lines have plans to go further into the suburbs.

but can you call Paris inner network incomplete? Would they go outside if within the city itself there was still some important areas without service?

Would London do it? New York? Chicago?

 

[nfitz]

The Yonge numbers more than support subway; this has been true for years. It's the lack of the infrastructure to handle it, that has stopped it. Even most of the hard-core LRT proponents have always conceded that Yonge should be subway, based on demand.

 

[nfitz]

Would London do it? New York? Chicago?

London has been going outside the core area for since the century before last.

But do you see a subway in downtown areas such as Hackney? Or Chelsea? Even after over a century of promises?

 

[Ansem]

If we are talking about LRT, what we are really talking about is building a subway extension from Steeles to RHC or building LRT down Yonge past RHC. I would argue that this is exactly the same situation as Sheppard East today. Would you end the subway at the designated urban growth centre or would you end it a few km short and force all those folks to transfer to a LRT to get to the regional bus terminal?

Also the demand forecasts of both the TTC and York Region show that the lines will probably exceed LRT capacity in a few years.

http://stevemunro.ca/?p=1584 (Steve's got the numbers here).

When discussing LRT vs. subway though, it should be York's interests that come into play, not Toronto's. Any LRT network that's built would be entirely inside York Region with just interfaces at the subway terminii. The discussion should be about whether LRT or BRT is better for York vs. a subway extension from Steeles to RHC (combined with some BRT and local bus services that's there today). The discussion should not be about cutting the subway short to impose LRT on York. So if you think LRT is more suitable than a subway, then share why you think its more appropriate for York.

Because I think most of York Commuters wnats to go downtown, NYC. Fast LRT (not what we're being serve on sheppard) to upgraded and more frequent Go stations with stops North,Mi-town and downtown like the RER would be efficient.

Sure the subway is needed but with the same amount of money, the LRT network could be much bigger and go to many key areas and not only city centers...

I didn't say cut the money, I said use the SAME amount but how can it service the most people. I only wish they would have studied that too.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

It amazes me all the basic factual errors here.

Freshstart - the RHC subway is $2.4 billion, not $5 billion.
You also seem to think York Region is not paying for construction though it's been established here a million times that they ARE. Don't worry - Ansem also has no understanding of how this thing is being funded.
I'm also baffled by you proposing a use for the Bala line given how jealously CN guards its rail use.

Ansem - I hardly know what to say.
You just don't get it.
The Yonge line was extended from Eglinton to Finch in the 1970s and I assure you Finch in 1974 was far less developed than the stretch north of Steeles is now.

I don't care if Brooklyn is considering an LRT. You miss the fundamental point that they are already served by multiple subway lines. LRT is to supplement - not replace - lines that have been there for many decades. All you are doing is proving the need for subway lines.

I see we also still have the "it will be empty" vs. "it will be over capacity" arugments going on. One poster writes that no one will get on north of Steeles while another says plenty of York residents already pay fares at Finch.

Why someone would say the latter and STILL object to extending the subway north - demanding those people drive or take other inefficient methods to get on the subway they are clearly taking either way - baffles me. It's cost neutral for TORONTO so who cares about the GTA or public transit at large, right?

(And don't forget - 1/2 of trains will turn back at Steeles and thus not run into York Region during those horrible, empty, mid-days.)
I can't believe we're 80 pages in and the discussion is actually going backwards.

 

[kEiThZ]

Because I think most of York Commuters wants to go downtown, NYC. Fast LRT (not what we're being serve on sheppard) to upgraded and more frequent Go stations with stops North,Mi-town and downtown like the RER would be efficient.

Sure the subway is needed but with the same amount of money, the LRT network could be much bigger and go to many key areas and not only city centers...

I didn't say cut the money, I said use the SAME amount but how can it service the most people. I only wish they would have studied that too.

What you are essentially proposing is the LRT-izing of the Richmond Hill GO line. I am skeptical that's going to be cheap. I am deeply skeptical that a $1.5 billion dollar subway extension (from Steeles to RHC) would be cheaper than revamping a parallel line and creating completely new service (with a new yard, a new fleet, new pool of operators, etc.). And all this does not even take into account operating costs. The marginal operating costs of running a subway train an extra few stops would be orders of magnitude smaller than having an entire parallel rail line just to shuttle RHC commuters to/from downtown Toronto.

Finally, such an LRT would not serve commuters as well as a subway extension because while many of them are heading into Toronto, the percentage who ride YUS all the way to Union remains rather small. Those who are going to Union probably already take GO today. I suspect that the vast majority of these travelers work in North York itself. Or elsewhere along the Yonge line. If the extension were stopped at Steeles, these commuters would still be traveling on the Yonge line, just from a different start point. If your destination was on Yonge (say NYCC) why would you take a parallel line rather than YUS itself?

And if you are talking about an LRT network feeding a GO line, well then the debate is really GO vs. the Yonge line (because the LRT portion is only relevant for intra-regional travel inside York and not inter-regional commutes). There is no way that a GO line could serve Thornhill (for sure) and Richmond Hill (with some reservations) significantly better than a subway. Just as I mentioned before, such a line would only serve the small minority of users headed for a handful of stations along that line and to Union. You aren't going to attract any commuters traveling to points in North York (unless they are close to the GO line or east of it) that are along Yonge.

Ansem, I strongly recommend you head up Yonge from Finch this weekend and have a look at the area. I have long considered Thornhill to be basically part of Toronto. I can't see why they should not get a subway or how they would be better served by a parallel LRT line...which would not have many stops (as per your proposal).

 

[waterloowarrior]

York Putting out an RFP for a government relations consultant to help get funding for the subway extension, since "Metrolinx has made it clear that they are not in a position to fund work on this project for the foreseeable future."


http://www.york.ca/NR/rdonlyres/u6x...5lumju3y667wutt77ajdjrlc/Sep+10+Yonge+gov.pdf

 

[waterloowarrior]

To add onto what others have said, here's the plans for Richmond Hill Centre / Langstaff Gateway, the last two stops on the line

 

[nfitz]

Freshstart - the RHC subway is $2.4 billion, not $5 billion.
You also seem to think York Region is not paying for construction though it's been established here a million times that they ARE.

How can you say that? It's not funded by anyone right now. The City of Toronto is paying nothing towards the Sheppard LRT, the Finch LRT, the Eglinton LRT, or the Scarborough RT; instead they've got the province playing 96% and the very generous feds paying about 4%. So on that basis, why do you say York Region is paying for construction of the Yonge extension?

 

[drum118]

It amazes me all the basic factual errors here.

Freshstart - the RHC subway is $2.4 billion, not $5 billion.
You also seem to think York Region is not paying for construction though it's been established here a million times that they ARE. Don't worry - Ansem also has no understanding of how this thing is being funded.
I'm also baffled by you proposing a use for the Bala line given how jealously CN guards its rail use.

Ansem - I hardly know what to say.
You just don't get it.
The Yonge line was extended from Eglinton to Finch in the 1970s and I assure you Finch in 1974 was far less developed than the stretch north of Steeles is now.

I don't care if Brooklyn is considering an LRT. You miss the fundamental point that they are already served by multiple subway lines. LRT is to supplement - not replace - lines that have been there for many decades. All you are doing is proving the need for subway lines.

I see we also still have the "it will be empty" vs. "it will be over capacity" arugments going on. One poster writes that no one will get on north of Steeles while another says plenty of York residents already pay fares at Finch.

Why someone would say the latter and STILL object to extending the subway north - demanding those people drive or take other inefficient methods to get on the subway they are clearly taking either way - baffles me. It's cost neutral for TORONTO so who cares about the GTA or public transit at large, right?

(And don't forget - 1/2 of trains will turn back at Steeles and thus not run into York Region during those horrible, empty, mid-days.)
I can't believe we're 80 pages in and the discussion is actually going backwards.

Factual errors:
$2.4 B for only the line extension
No storage Yard cost included and must be added as well the cost of the line to get there. Cost of the land to do this must be added in.

15,000 riders on Yonge, but not all go to Steeles let alone Finch today and 25,000 by 2017.

How many riders use YRT to Finch not using Yonge?

If 1,200/hr use the subway at peak time to Finch, how many will use it in off peak? How many riders will fit on the new TR? Now, how many will be on each train if service is every 10 minutes??

 

[kEiThZ]

How can you say that? It's not funded by anyone right now. The City of Toronto is paying nothing towards the Sheppard LRT, the Finch LRT, the Eglinton LRT, or the Scarborough RT; instead they've got the province playing 96% and the very generous feds paying about 4%. So on that basis, why do you say York Region is paying for construction of the Yonge extension?

I believe they are pitching in for the Spadina extension so if that's the model, they would probably pitch in on the Yonge extension. If they aren't then the debate is irrelevant.

Factual errors:
$2.4 B for only the line extension
No storage Yard cost included and must be added as well the cost of the line to get there. Cost of the land to do this must be added in.

But there's no way all that doubles the cost of the project. It's dishonest to suggest that just because there are no estimates for yard costs, spur line costs, etc. that the pricetag would double. Do you have any example of such a precedent? At worst, it might take it up to $3 billion.

 

[nfitz]

I believe they are pitching in for the Spadina extension so if that's the model, they would probably pitch in on the Yonge extension.

If, probably ... fair enough. He shot someone down for suggesting York wouldn't be paying noting that "it's been established here a million times that they ARE" paying; despite the most recent model being the town paying none.

 

[drum118]

I believe they are pitching in for the Spadina extension so if that's the model, they would probably pitch in on the Yonge extension. If they aren't then the debate is irrelevant.



But there's no way all that doubles the cost of the project. It's dishonest to suggest that just because there are no estimates for yard costs, spur line costs, etc. that the pricetag would double. Do you have any example of such a precedent? At worst, it might take it up to $3 billion.

Taking the line along Sheppard W and connect to Wilson Yard is $1.5B. You then need to expand the yard and carhouse and that about $450m. There is almost $2B. You then need about $1B to rebuild Bloor Station and there is your $3B

You cannot look at one thing to get what you want as there are compounding factors that effect the system as a whole.

If you are making any changes to the network, You ""Must"" look at the big picture as it may cause all kinds of problems and they all come with a price tag.

What is still not factor in to this expansion is enlarging all the stations south of Bloor and that is adding more than 1 extra entrance that is plan. You can be looking at $10-$50m per station and could be more and that another $50-$250m more plus. Wait tell they extend Dundas north to Ryerson and that could be $100m

I go back and say "Why should 60,000 riders gets first class while 300,000+ get 3rd class service"??

York see this extension as a development tool to increase land value for a few land owners who are going to make a killing of this expansion. I have meet a few of them and they would never set foot on this expansion in the first place. One stated "the oil field just drop a foot when I fill my SV up today and it was no big deal for me and even if it cost $5 a liter".

Now going north in RH and finding a place for the yard, the cost could be higher than Wilson.

 

[Dan416]

I think it's ridiculous to extend the subway to Steeles and just end it there. I'm not sure WHERE it should go, but not it shouldn't be some arbitrary figure. It should not end, and then need to continue as LRT. That's just a stupid transfer a la Sheppard East and Kennedy. Buses should continue on from a subway terminus in my opinion. LRTs should be elsewhere.