Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

Woodbridge_Heights said:
I don't understand what the problem is...

The question was simply why was BRT chosen as the only alternative in the comparison and not LRT? Arguably LRT can do anything BRT can and do it better no?
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No.

Woodbridge_Heights said:
The implication was that Metrolinx intentionally chose an inferior option for their comparison so that the subway option would come out on top
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Both "options" are inferior and silly, but only bus lanes were being looked at (between Finch and Steeles) previously. Why study two sacrificial lambs when only one is needed? Why not study a GO train or a monorail, too? Why not study 'do nothing'? Why spend time and money studying options that are so obviously bad? It's good that we place a shred of responsibility on the shoulders of real people and not just on whatever the calculators and computer models spit out.

An LRT line north of Finch would be incredibly silly and expensive when the buses would still need to be kept and operated alongside the ROW. Hell, if an LRT line was built, bus lanes or even a full-fledged BRT line would also need to be built...now that's value!
 
To sum up my ideas over the past day of discussion, I think the Yonge extension is very, very, very much needed. LRT would be complete hell (busses would either have to transfer at a low-frequency LRT, or go along the now substantially smaller street, possibly 4 or 5 kilometers, to Finch station. Either option, it would be absolute hell.

BRT is better because other busses could use the ROW (but I'm not sure how many busses would be allowed to use it, but there's another 2 problems with that. First, it still funnels a growing number of busses and passengers into a battered and bruised Finch Station, and second, it might not be able to fulfill ridership projections for Yonge in the long run, and with LRT being out of the picture as an option, then the only option is subway.

Hope my insight was helpful to the discussion :)
 
100% agree. The issue isn't what type of service. It's how do you mitigate the stress is will place on the rest of the subway. But that's the problem you want to have isn't it? To much transit demand!
 
If the extension goes to Steeles only but they still build that huge underground bus terminal, that would easily mitigate all the bus congestion off of Yonge through North York. To Steeles would be roughly $1 billion, and terminates the line at an already dense and urbanized intersection of Yonge St; while still leaving open the possibility for future expansion.
 
I agree with you Fresh Start opinion. I think that the extension of the Yonge Line to Steeles is a must. The amount of transit use, by all the different bus routes that use Yonge from Steeles to Finch is incredible, definitely subway numbers. And leaving the Steeles Extension open for future expansion down the road makes a lot of sense.

Steeles Station would be very important, and maybe York region could have a high frequency LRT that could have its' southern terminus at this Steeles station. This would leave Finch Station open for it's own LRT and a few bus routes leaving all that land open for development. I imagine that the Brampton bus that uses Finch Station presently would connect to the Subway on the western extension near York University or in Vaughn. All the GO buses that presently use Finch Station could stop at this Steeles Station instead as well.

This extension in the end will save money for the City of Toronto in one area and that is in road repair. Buses are very hard on city streets and maybe Yonge St. won't need as much work done on it in the future if a lot of the bus routes will now use Steeles Station instead.
 
CDL.TO said:
Says who?

There's a big difference between someone challenging you on your assertions and censorship.
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Really? So far no one has challenged my opinions. Instead I've been told "it's done already why bother", or "Well obviously they used a glass jawed comparison (BRT) because they already knew that it was going to be a subway from the start". How dare I suggest that LRT might be a better option! However I'll cede as it is not about me.

BTW I think the Steeles extension + LRT is a great idea.
 
Fresh Start said:
If the extension goes to Steeles only but they still build that huge underground bus terminal, that would easily mitigate all the bus congestion off of Yonge through North York. To Steeles would be roughly $1 billion, and terminates the line at an already dense and urbanized intersection of Yonge St; while still leaving open the possibility for future expansion.
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Well, I guess all the Toronto taxpayers will be happy to know that the bus congestion on THEIR side of Steeles is all taken care of.

The fact that the province has ordered RH and Markham to build a massive urban centre and transit hub a mere 2km away shouldn't be a major consideration?

I hope you're not expecting York Region to pay for any of the to-Steeles extension and will refund all the money York Region has already put into the planning.

Frankly, I'm amazed that this kind of thinking is still out there since the fundamental (and correct) criticism of Sheppard is that it would work far better if it had been built out to its natural terminus instead of a compromised, shortened route.

With all due respect, I think spending $1B just to go from Finch to Steeles is pointless. Better to save the money and keep the current mess. The only reason to stop at Steeles is to provide a "compromise" for those who want the subway extension but who can't stomach it leaving the cozy confines of Toronto for those far-flung suburbs.
 
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TJ O'Pootertoot said:
Well, I guess all the Toronto taxpayers will be happy to know that the bus congestion on THEIR side of Steeles is all taken care of.

The fact that the province has ordered RH and Markham to build a massive urban centre and transit hub a mere 2km away shouldn't be a major consideration?

I hope you're not expecting York Region to pay for any of the to-Steeles extension and will refund all the money York Region has already put into the planning.

Frankly, I'm amazed that this kind of thinking is still out there since the fundamental (and correct) criticism of Sheppard is that it would work far better if it had been built out to its natural terminus instead of a compromised, shortened route.

With all due respect, I think spending $1B just to go from Finch to Steeles is pointless. Better to save the money and keep the current mess. The only reason to stop at Steeles is to provide a "compromise" for those who want the subway extension but who can't stomach it leaving the cozy confines of Toronto for those far-flung suburbs.
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-York is already getting a Subway to Vaughan.

-An LRT on Yonge north of Steeles would have EASILY done the job. I'm not surprise that the LRT option isn't there because politicians want the suburs votes.

Richmond hill subway is a horrible waste of taxpayer money. Vaughan as well as far as I'm concern. With all the billions going to York, I can only see this as strategic mistake.

I mean

It's 3 station west and 3 stations east in York
VS
A much extensive LRT network giving service to as much citizens as possible close to their neighbourhood.


Ridiculous...

This is not LONDON here...Its York...

Look at all the 1st class transit network around the world...
They would call this a rookie mistake which has political agenda written all over this.

If Brooklyn or Bronx are looking LRT instead of demanding a new Subway line to link the suburbs and Manhattan, So what? York is too big or important for LRT?

We do have rotten politicians in this country...
 
I respectfully disagree. As a Torontonian I support the subway extension to York. It is connecting two city centres: RHC and NYCC. TJ is right. Anything less will replicate the Sheppard stubway + SELRT situation on Yonge in a few years.

Planning shouldn't take into account just current ridership. Future ridership, logical network planning, potential for transit oriented development, etc. also has to be taken into account. The TTC failed to do this on Sheppard, so it gave us the 'Transfer City' Sheppard East LRT. I don't like it. And I don't want to see it replicated elsewhere.

So what if York is getting a subway in Vaughan? How is that relevant to the Yonge corridor? Do we ever say that Scarborough should not get a subway since Etobicoke is getting one? Subways should be built where it's logical to build them. Extending the YUS line a mere 2 km north of Steeles (and it's a given that the extension to Steeles has to happen) to connect with a planned (and already developing) urban growth centre has just as much merit as a Bloor-Danforth or a Sheppard subway extension to STC. If anything, it's even more of a no-brainer because it's such a short distance and such a direct path.

Discussions about how to serve the rest of York. BRT vs. LRT, etc. are above and beyond that. This subway is needed as a trunk line to support an urban growth centre. Personally, I think York will do just fine with a solid BRT build out feeding into the subway system.

Finally, the reference to New York is irrelevant. The Bronx and Brooklyn have subway coverage above and beyond anything any Torontonian could dream off. They are using LRT to feed the subway system. We are still building our subway system up here. The LRT network will come in time.
 
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Woodbridge_Heights said:
Really? So far no one has challenged my opinions. Instead I've been told "it's done already why bother", or "Well obviously they used a glass jawed comparison (BRT) because they already knew that it was going to be a subway from the start". How dare I suggest that LRT might be a better option! However I'll cede as it is not about me.

BTW I think the Steeles extension + LRT is a great idea.
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While I think subway to RHC + BRT is the right solution for both Toronto and York, I fully agree with you that a subway to Steeles + LRT should have been studied. I would have liked to have seen if this would have been more cost-effective and supportive of the emerging urban growth centre at RHC.
 
I live in the burbs but not the burb getting the two subway extensions......relative to the overall picture, I am not sure they are going to get them a lot of votes (per billion spent) so if that was the goal I think it misses there too.

If all we were talking about was the transit needs of York, then I guess we would never talk about a subway....but that it is not the case....it is the interconnectivity of York and the city of Toronto.

Again, if we were talking about having to build an entire new line then I don't think we would be talking about a subway either and LRT (or BRT) would be the obvious way to go....but we are not.....we are talking about extending exisiting lines....sure it might cost more than running the subway up to Steeles then having an LRT meet it...but don't we lose some attractiveness to potential riders if they have to change modes?

I think extending subways into the burbs makes sense.....I happen to think that extending to Mississauga would have made more sense (no, I don't live there either) and I happen to think that York is, likely, getting a disproportionate amount of the transit expansion pie.....but I do agree that, on an overall regional basis, we are better off with the extensions than without and, perhaps, in the next round other areas will get their disproportionate share and it will balance out.
 
^ Hear hear. Well said. As a Scarberian, I don't begrude the Yorkies one bit. I just hope that somebody will knock some sense into our own politicians (and those mounting the higher horses in Mississauga) to get the appropriate lines extended there.
 
kEiThZ said:
I respectfully disagree. As a Torontonian I support the subway extension to York. It is connecting two city centres: RHC and NYCC. TJ is right. Anything less will replicate the Sheppard stubway + SELRT situation on Yonge in a few years.
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-As a Torontonian, I'm pissed that politicians makes decision based on how people will vote in he next election rather on what needs to be done.

-You do agree that subway service should have already been there for many parts of this city. The TTC mandate is to serve Toronto. As long as they do not live to their mandate, I won't support a subway outside. This isn't London who goes to every important transit hub in the city, or Chicago, New York and Paris...

Why does those 1st class city (in case some of you didn't know, Toronto is in that list) first built their network wihin their city? Just common sense...I just don't see the MTA going to Newark before building that new line in Manhattan or that LRT they are studying for Brooklyn or Bronx.

In Paris the RER goes ouside of Paris, not the subway.

-I was going to make another comment. I know York will pay part of the construction fees. What about maintenance? Will they help pay maintenance cost every years? I said many time that if the TTC subways was recognize as a Metropolitain equipment, I would support.
That's what happened in Montreal with all of the suburbs, subway or no subways helping paying for the maintenance and upgrading of the subway.

-We do have lousy politicians Toronto espacially included...

kEiThZ said:
Planning shouldn't take into account just current ridership. Future ridership, logical network planning, potential for transit oriented development, etc. also has to be taken into account. The TTC failed to do this on Sheppard, so it gave us the 'Transfer City' Sheppard East LRT. I don't like it. And I don't want to see it replicated elsewhere.
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-Good point.I have to agree. But like I say those billions going to York using TTC personel and equipment should be invested in the city. The TTC mandate is Toronto and not the suburb, unless the suburbs help pay for maintenance and upgrading.
 
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