Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Sigh. When funding comes it will be through Metrolinx. I'm far too lazy to go and google the documents but suffice it to say that so far York Region has put in far more money than Toronto.

(The "million times" remark was probably more of a reference to the Spadina thread where people similarly bitch about how much Toronto is paying when they're not paying very much. So, I'll half-apologize for that.)

Whatever the final arrangements are they will undoubtedly be similar to Spadina with the upper levels of government funding the bulk of it with Toronto paying about 25% and the region paying about 75%, based on how much of the line is in their respective territories. If you go to YR's website now you can see them sharing costs in just that manner on a study to get more detailed work done so they're ready when funding comes.

And, for the zillionth time, TTC gets 100% of fare and parking revenues. Zip goes to York. AND Metrolinx has made it clear that they will own and operate the damned thing anyway!!

Based on the funding model we've seen - and let's assume a $3B cost, for the sake of argument - it would be the feds and prov each paying $1B with Toronto putting up $250M and YR putting up $750M. Whatever the final numbers are, they will be closed to that.

Oh, and TTC has also answered the rail yards Q, somewhat quietly. Instead of expanding Wilson they are going to build a tail track in Richmond Hill big enough to hold a dozen cars ... or trains. I forget. It won't cost a couple of billion $.

And though it's been TTC's spin, it's hugely disingenuous to imply that Bloor-Yonge renos or the DRL or ATO are part of the Yonge extension. They were all required anyway. The same goes for new trains.

I thought we established this 50 pages ago but it's really pointless for people to bitch about why it should be LRT or BRT or list whatever projects they would do instead. It's in the pipe and the prelim work is done. In a few months we'll know if Metrolinx thinks it's still a huge priority and at some point after that it will get funded. MAYBE everything will collapse and York will have to go to a Plan B but it's really time to stop playing "what if" on these boards. It goes nowhere as does bringing up transit systems in cities with totally different histories, geographies, cultures etc. etc.

 

[Chuck]

The Yonge extension is revenue neutral to Toronto, and the York Region extensions certainly haven't diverted Provincial transit dollars away from Toronto. As a Toronto taxpayer, I'm far more concerned about $10B being wasted on streetcars.

A typical work day sees only about 60% of the parking spots at Langstaff filled up. The lack of demand for GO train service in the Yonge corridor is unprecedented for the GTA. And it's no wonder - with all the office towers at or north of Bloor, and two large universities at or north of Dundas, the Yonge corridor is uniquely better suited to local subway service than GO trains stopping only at Union. People who live in the Yonge corridor should be encouraged to use the Yonge subway. It only makes sense.

As far as I'm concerned, the only debate with regards to the Yonge subway is when. Ridership patterns and numbers are currently in that gray zone where you need more than LRT, but less than subway. I say bite the bullet and build a subway now. GO is without a doubt not the solution for capacity issues in the Yonge corridor.

 

[smuncky]

why not have LRT coming from finch to steeles. Then have BRT continue after that.

 

[nfitz]

why not have LRT coming from finch to steeles. Then have BRT continue after that.

Hey, we could have a BRT runing to Steeles, then run a subway up to 407, and then an LRT to Newmarket. That way York would get it's subway, and we wouldn't overload the Yonge Line!

 

[Fresh Start]

What the HELL is with this? "Oh, the subway definitely needs to go to Steeles, but it makes absolutely no sense to put it further through York" ? This subway is needed.

No, actually there would still be a lineup of busses down Yonge going to Steeles station. The only thing you've done is improved service to all those torontonians, and gotten the York bus traffic out of your face.

I agree. How about we get rid of the Yonge subway north of Eglinton too? I mean, obviously Regional Rail is the same thing as a subway, so North York will do well with Go instead of a subway, right?

As I said before, let's get rid of the Yonge subway and instead have 5 minute headways on the Richmond Hill line.
But you should be warned, that sort of thing won't take as short as you think. They'd need to improve track, double or triple-track the entire line, build new station facilities, electrify the line, buy new lighter, electric vehicles, sort out agreements with CP or CN or whatever, and like double the number of their drivers.

I literally spat out my drink reading this. Are you for real? I believe I have commuted along Yonge Street on both sides of the Steeles divide enough times to know where is experiencing gridlock and where is no more congested than your typical major suburban arterial. No where in my post did I say to eliminate existing subway lines or make any outrageous bogus claims. I can cite many sources which reveal the true cost/federal budget to extend all the way to Hwy 7.

http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/562793
http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/555673
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/toronto/story.html?id=1146889
http://www.michaelwalker.ca/articles/01062009-NPOST.pdf
http://transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5113.shtml

It's lack of intuitive thought on the part of planners that's making it appear that extending the Yonge Line to Hwy 7 is our only option, when there's clearly several cost-effective initiatives we could attempt. It's not astrophysics. Simply rerouting YRT buses into other points on the subway grid alone would alleviate Finch Stn and the Yonge corridor. To do this costs us nothing (especially considering a whole list of suburban stations with underused bus bays).

And on another note, if the cost to ride the GO train into downtown Toronto from Langstaff was the same as a regular bus fare, don't you think more people would utilize the service and avoid a myriad minor stops heading inwards on the subway? I know I certainly would. The only problem is the headway. But guess what, the Yonge Line north of Finch will only route trips every five minutes itself. Meaning there is no real time advantage to using that service which will stop 16 times en route and take an hour to get to Union; over S-bahn/ regional rail service that'll only take 25 minutes and stop 6 times en route with new stations at John/Bayview, York Mills, Eglinton and West Don Lands. Extending to Steeles alone would not overtax the system the way RHC threatens to do. And it won't cost the taxpayer $5 billion dollars to implement all of this either, lest we forget.

 

[Disparishun]

You then need about $1B to rebuild Bloor Station and there is your $3B

It has been repeatedly asserted that Yonge-Bloor is overcrowded and that a DRL will fix that. So the Yonge Extension is clearly not a trigger for rebuilding Yonge-Bloor -- it's a necessary spend irrespective of the Yonge Extension. So a Yonge-Bloor rebuild can't be part of the Yonge Extension cost.

What is still not factor in to this expansion is enlarging all the stations south of Bloor and that is adding more than 1 extra entrance that is plan. You can be looking at $10-$50m per station and could be more and that another $50-$250m more plus. Wait tell they extend Dundas north to Ryerson and that could be $100m

I go back and say "Why should 60,000 riders gets first class while 300,000+ get 3rd class service"??

I don't understand this at all.

First, are you saying that the Yonge Extension will preclude otherwise-necessary expansion on stations south of Bloor? Because that's not right.

Or are you saying that the Yonge Extension will make expansion on stations south of Bloor necessary, where it wouldn't have been before? Because that just sounds weird.

Second, note that this is not about riders. It is about citizens -- many of whom are not currently riders, as they are underserved. Transit is about providing better transport to everyone.

York see this extension as a development tool to increase land value for a few land owners who are going to make a killing of this expansion.

Nope, we see it as a necessary transportation solution that leverages existing infrastructure by extending it 6 km to address a badly congested corridor which is about to get far worse.

I have meet a few of them and they would never set foot on this expansion in the first place. One stated "the oil field just drop a foot when I fill my SV up today and it was no big deal for me and even if it cost $5 a liter".

Sounds like you hang out with people who are either irritating or like to take the piss. But let's get back on track, please.

 

[Disparishun]

I believe I have commuted along Yonge Street on both sides of the Steeles divide enough times to know where is experiencing gridlock and where is no more congested than your typical major suburban arterial.

Really? I do Clark to Finch daily. Clark to Steeles is congested -- and often gets less so after Steeles, notwithstanding all the extra construction and so forth which congests the southern leg. There are more buses on the southern leg, though.

I can cite many sources which reveal the true cost/federal budget to extend all the way to Hwy 7.

I have no clue as to cost, but don't all of these sources cite $2.5b and rely on a common source for that figure?

Simply rerouting YRT buses into other points on the subway grid alone would alleviate Finch Stn and the Yonge corridor. To do this costs us nothing (especially considering a whole list of suburban stations with underused bus bays).

Interesting. Which buses would you reroute? (And what would happen to their ridership?)

I guess that, if we split the 77 into separate western and eastern routes (didn't the western portion used to be the Vaughan 7 before it was merged with the Brampton route, come to think of it?), the western route could head down to Downsview, at the cost of extra travel time -- is that the sort of thing you're talking about? What other routes do you have in mind?

And on another note, if the cost to ride the GO train into downtown Toronto from Langstaff was the same as a regular bus fare, don't you think more people would utilize the service and avoid a myriad minor stops heading inwards on the subway? I know I certainly would.

I sure wouldn't -- it'd take too long. And I'm one of those heading from Yonge and Clark to Union, so you'd think I'd be a prime candidate. Where are you coming from?

The only problem is the headway.

Well, that's one problem. The other problem is the time it takes. With trains every five minutes or so, I guess travel time would be more or less the same if you happened to be going to Union. I doubt that will happen anytime soon, mind you. But it would be a nice option.

But guess what, the Yonge Line north of Finch will only route trips every five minutes itself. Meaning there is no real time advantage to using that service which will stop 16 times en route and take an hour to get to Union; over S-bahn/ regional rail service that'll only take 25 minutes and stop 6 times en route with new stations at John/Bayview, York Mills, Eglinton and West Don Lands.

This doesn't sound right. Take an hour to get to Union, when it takes 35 minutes or so from Finch to Union? And shaving 35-ish (can't remember) down to 25 minutes from Langstaff to Union, notwithstanding a whole bunch of new stations to stop at?

Listen, I'd love for the latter to be true, as it might make the Langstaff GO train a viable option instead of a fairly silly way of getting anywhere. In fact, it's my opinion that, sooner or later, an express, fare-integrated north-south route that serves the eastern axis of central Toronto and takes advantage of the existing RH ROW and infrastructure will be badly needed -- and that we should get going right away. But let's not kid ourselves into thinking that that has any prospect of actually happening in the next quarter-century.

Extending to Steeles alone would not overtax the system the way RHC threatens to do. And it won't cost the taxpayer $5 billion dollars to implement all of this either, lest we forget.[/QUOTE]

 

[scarberiankhatru]

And on another note, if the cost to ride the GO train into downtown Toronto from Langstaff was the same as a regular bus fare, don't you think more people would utilize the service and avoid a myriad minor stops heading inwards on the subway? I know I certainly would. The only problem is the headway. But guess what, the Yonge Line north of Finch will only route trips every five minutes itself. Meaning there is no real time advantage to using that service which will stop 16 times en route and take an hour to get to Union; over S-bahn/ regional rail service that'll only take 25 minutes and stop 6 times en route with new stations at John/Bayview, York Mills, Eglinton and West Don Lands. Extending to Steeles alone would not overtax the system the way RHC threatens to do. And it won't cost the taxpayer $5 billion dollars to implement all of this either, lest we forget.

No, GO is not a useful substitute for the Yonge extension. What the hell good is GO to someone at, say, Bathurst & Steeles? Most people will get on the subway after Richmond Hill Centre and most will get off before Union.

It won't take an hour to get to Union (it won't even take 40 minutes) and you've forgotten to account for the wait for a GO train (even if bus routes were rejigged to serve GO stations. Some will find improved GO lines useful, particularly those currently riding long bus routes to get to the subway, but the main outcome of these diverted riders will be to free up space for more riders along Yonge itself...the Yonge line might always be as busy as it is now.

That $5B figure is rubbish and/or sneaky and you know that. The transit 'side dishes' like expanded yards or rebuilding Y&B or adding a second entrance at College either do not need to happen or do need to happen no matter what...and if a Sheppard extension to Downsview is included in that $5B as drum118 says, well, then we get a *second* useful subway extension out of the deal, which is great. Even though feeder buses do and will continue to pour the bulk of riders onto the subway, condo development near Cummer and Steeles could add more than enough riders to the Yonge line to "overtax" it. The idea that any inch of subway north of Steeles will overcrowd the system only reinforces how successful the extension would be...the system is already overtaxed and will remain overtaxed no matter how far the line is extended. The Yonge line doesn't exist in a vacuum...that's where the DRL and other projects come into play. You can't build a subway network without building/extending the lines within the network.

 

[Ansem]

I use the Sheppard west corridor daily. At peak time, it's a nightmare. If the TTC gets Sheppard subway to downview, that would be a plus.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

And on another note, if the cost to ride the GO train into downtown Toronto from Langstaff was the same as a regular bus fare, don't you think more people would utilize the service and avoid a myriad minor stops heading inwards on the subway? I know I certainly would. The only problem is the headway. But guess what, the Yonge Line north of Finch will only route trips every five minutes itself. Meaning there is no real time advantage to using that service which will stop 16 times en route and take an hour to get to Union;

You're entire premise is flawed. We're not talking about what the best way to get to Union Station is. We're talking about the best way for people to get all sorts of places all over the GTA.

Your GO solution does nothing to help anyone who wants to get from, say, Yonge/16th to anywhere between Steeles and Bloor.

Given all the knowledgeable people here I'm really amazed we keep circling around the same arguments and making the same crucial flaw: This is not about getting people from Richmond Hill to downtown. It is about creating an integrated, regional transit service.

Stopping the subway at Finch or Steeles is as senseless as stopping it at York Mills or Lawrence. If you want to insist that the most important factor is an arbitrary municipal boundary, and so long as the TTC is TORONTO's Transit Commission it's crazy they should go out to the suburbs, and unfair to TO's taxpayers...well, then my response is that we are playing a different ballgame now and if you can't hack it, Metrolinx will be only too happy to do it for you.

OH, and I thought we settled the time issue. MEtrolinx says 14 minutes from RHC to Finch. Add another 35 to Union and it's a 49 minute trip. Not an hour. Not 40 minutes.

 

[nfitz]

OH, and I thought we settled the time issue. MEtrolinx says 14 minutes from RHC to Finch. Add another 35 to Union and it's a 49 minute trip. Not an hour. Not 40 minutes.

Could be getting close to 40 minutes once the YUS line has all new (not yet ordered) trains, they have ATC in place, and the can run the trains a bit faster. Has there been any estimates on how much it could speed up? 10% to 20% seems a reasonable guess ... then at least it would be as fast as the SRT.

 

[nfitz]

It has been repeatedly asserted that Yonge-Bloor is overcrowded and that a DRL will fix that. So the Yonge Extension is clearly not a trigger for rebuilding Yonge-Bloor -- it's a necessary spend irrespective of the Yonge Extension. So a Yonge-Bloor rebuild can't be part of the Yonge Extension cost.

You have to do one or the other. A Yonge-Bloor rebuild would be pushing $1-billion, and the DRL would be probably closer to $3-billion by the time you do a major rebuild of whatever downtown stations(s) it intersects. On the other hand, without the DRL, you'd likely have to do major rebuilds of other major downtown stations, and with the DRL, Yonge traffic with all the new systems, the extensions, is forecast to be less than it is today.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

You're entire premise is flawed. We're not talking about what the best way to get to Union Station is. We're talking about the best way for people to get all sorts of places all over the GTA.

Your GO solution does nothing to help anyone who wants to get from, say, Yonge/16th to anywhere between Steeles and Bloor.

I forget which report I saw it in but I'll try to find it again. In it they said that up to 50% of all the riders boarding at Finch station are bound for some area around Wellington, that's 50% for all of 3 stations (King, Union, St Andrew), and it's a boundary that's really too far south IMHO given that the same report said that there are GO riders who walk from Union all the way up to College. I wonder what the percentage would be if Queen st or Dundas were used as the boundary instead. ** Correction: The station was Wellesley **, Yet GO's share of those riders is ~18%. If this isn't a market that is prime for improved GO service than I don't know what is.

How does a subway at Yonge and 7 help or improve the service recieved by someone at Yonge and 16'th? They would still (as would the vast majority of riders boarding at RHC) have to take some other form of transit to get to the subway terminus, be that at Yonge and 7, Yonge and Steeles, or Yonge and Finch. You haven't removed a transfer from their ride, all you've done is brought the subway margianally closer so that the can get on the subway quicker. Is that an efficient use of transit dollars?

 

[scarberiankhatru]

OH, and I thought we settled the time issue. MEtrolinx says 14 minutes from RHC to Finch. Add another 35 to Union and it's a 49 minute trip. Not an hour. Not 40 minutes.

It doesn't take 35 minutes to get from Finch to Union. 14 minutes to RHC also seems a bit high. 49 minutes if you include the wait for the train and average out occasional subway closures, maybe, but otherwise it will be more like 40. Of course, most riders will get on after RHC and get off before Union (or vice versa), so 40 minutes is the extreme case applicable only to some riders.

I forget which report I saw it in but I'll try to find it again. In it they said that up to 50% of all the riders boarding at Finch station are bound for some area around Wellington, that's 50% for all of 3 stations (King, Union, St Andrew), and it's a boundary that's really too far south IMHO given that the same report said that there are GO riders who walk from Union all the way up to College. I wonder what the percentage would be if Queen st or Dundas were used as the boundary instead. Yet GO's share of those riders is ~18%. If this isn't a market that is prime for improved GO service than I don't know what is.

How does a subway at Yonge and 7 help or improve the service recieved by someone at Yonge and 16'th? They would still (as would the vast majority of riders boarding at RHC) have to take some other form of transit to get to the subway terminus, be that at Yonge and 7, Yonge and Steeles, or Yonge and Finch. You haven't removed a transfer from their ride, all you've done is brought the subway margianally closer so that the can get on the subway quicker. Is that an efficient use of transit dollars?

Even if that "up to 50%" figure is true on a regular basis all day long and not just when they counted/asked people (and if 50% is the upper limit, what's the lower?), GO is simply not suitable for most of them. For one thing, no one from west of Yonge is going to take the Richmond Hill GO line. No one along Yonge itself will do so, either, except for people right at Langstaff station or north of there. Many of the people east of Yonge won't, either, partly because there's few stations along that GO line and buses don't connect with it. So after you subtract the other "50%," you need to throw in many of the people who are ending up near Union because GO doesn't work at the northern end of their trip. The RH GO line needs to be improved either way but the Yonge extension will still be absolutely necessary. GO will be an increasingly appealing option for people north of Hwy 7 and/or east of the RH GO line, but not the rest of Yonge's commutershed.

Don't base this around individual theoretical people...you'll lose the argument every time. What good is GO to someone at Bathurst & Steeles? And that area dumps hordes of people onto the Yonge line. The subway extension would shave plenty of time off the trip for people already along Yonge, including someone at Yonge & 16th, but what about someone at Yonge & Clark? Would a subway stop at their front door be a "marginal" improvement? Remember that the LRT plan you mentioned earlier would add transfers for many more people than what currently exists.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I forget which report I saw it in but I'll try to find it again. In it they said that up to 50% of all the riders boarding at Finch station are bound for some area around Wellington, that's 50% for all of 3 stations (King, Union, St Andrew),

Right...so, that doesn't really detract from my point which is that (to use your numbers) 1/2 of people who get on at Finch aren't going all the way down there. If those numbers are for Wellesley, that means HALF of all the people who get on at Finch aren't even going past Bloor. And we already know a significant percentage, if not an outright majority, of Finch passengers are coming from York Region.

Further, I think it's only logical to assume that when the extension is open there will be a lot more "midtown" trips, such as Steeles-->Eglinton. So, you kind of proved what I'm saying which is that GO may still be the best way to get ALL THE WAY downtown, but the subway will provide a crucial intermediary service.

And my point about 16th was that there are lots of people in the "Yonge Corridor" who might not live right at the subway but still benefit from it. Did you actually suggest that Hwy. 7 is only "marginally closer" than Finch Avenue or Steeles?

By that logic, why even have the subway run south of Wellesley? I mean, the financial district is only "marginally farther" and if (as with some people on this list) we don't care about having a huge break between the terminus at Steeles and the major transit hub at Hwy. 7, certainly it's no big deal to run an LRT down to Union Station, from there right?