ear2ear
New Member
This is a great point. The overcrowding argument seems like a boogeyman tactic to lobby for projects in other areas of Toronto.
Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx
- Thread starter 299 bloor call control.
- Start date
This is a great point. The overcrowding argument seems like a boogeyman tactic to lobby for projects in other areas of Toronto.
Second_in_pie
Senior Member
Hear, Hear!
The Yonge Extension to Richmond Hill will not kill Richmond Hill Go. The way it's going currently, it will kill itself. Right now, frequencies are horrible and peak-hour, making the system very unreliable and unattractive. When you put on top of that the fact that Go fares are more expensive than YRT fares, and you'll probably have to take the TTC on the last leg of your trip anyways, it's much more economical to either take Viva Blue to Finch, then take the subway. Either that, or just drive to Finch station and save $3. Put on top of that stack the fact that the Go train is none too speedy with it's slow, diesel locomotives and relatively heavy carriages.
Unless Go/Metrolinx addresses these problems, RH Go will die on it's own. If they do address these issues, RH Go will be the perfect express option for people taking N-S trips.
299 bloor call control.
Senior Member
Alright fine. Let's build the Yonge Extension without relieving any of the capacity issues south of Bloor.
Now imagine a service disruption, of even 5 minutes, at say, Rosedale Station. At the theoretical 90 second headway, that means 3 trains would have not gone by. That's Three full trains of existing and new riders attracted by the extension, not to mention all the riders who need to take the Yonge Subway to get to the Bloor-Danforth Subway will be stuck on every northbound platform, south of Bloor.
And guess what happens then? Everyone loses.
The DRL would create choice in a very choice-limited network to help spread out demand when things are running smoothly, and provides much needed relief when things don't run smoothly.
Now imagine a service disruption, of even 5 minutes, at say, Rosedale Station. At the theoretical 90 second headway, that means 3 trains would have not gone by. That's Three full trains of existing and new riders attracted by the extension, not to mention all the riders who need to take the Yonge Subway to get to the Bloor-Danforth Subway will be stuck on every northbound platform, south of Bloor.
And guess what happens then? Everyone loses.
The DRL would create choice in a very choice-limited network to help spread out demand when things are running smoothly, and provides much needed relief when things don't run smoothly.
xtremesniper
Active Member
I don't think anyone here is disputing the fact that the DRL is needed, and should be open and operational around the same time that the Yonge Extension would be opened.
I was just pointing out that the talk of overcrowding is a little overkill considering all the factors. In any case where there is a delay on the subway anywhere in the system, everyone loses with or without alternate routes being available. And if the TTC initiates some sort of education campaign regarding the proper use of the yellow emergency strips and successfully implements automatic train operation, many of today's useless and completely avoidable delays would not exist... Here's hoping.
Chuck
Senior Member
The $10B that Toronto will dedicate toward Transit City could just as easily have been spent on 20km of DRL to Eglinton, 30 km of Eglinton subway, and 15km of Sheppard. However, unlike York Region, those running Toronto decided to spend the money on streetcars instead. If this annoys you, don't complain about York Region. Complain about the tens of km of subway that could have been built had Miller and Giambrone simply done what York did, and placed subway instead of streetcar on the dotted line.
Not surprisingly, this thread has also turned toward 416 = subway, 905 = GO. Regardless of area code, the mode of transit that should be built in any location should be based only on the needs of the corridor. Yonge is highly urban even in York Region, people board at random locations evenly distributed throughout the line, and there will be thousands of high density units constructed over the next decade. Commuter rail is completely inappropriate for the Yonge corridor, and GO is not an alternative.
Although GO suffers from chronic parking shortages, the lots at Langstaff GO typically only fill up to 75% of capacity, even on the busiest of days. Meanwhile, the parking lot at Finch Station is completely full by 8 am. There just isn't any demand for improved GO service, and that is because commuter rail is the wrong mode for Yonge St.
Not surprisingly, this thread has also turned toward 416 = subway, 905 = GO. Regardless of area code, the mode of transit that should be built in any location should be based only on the needs of the corridor. Yonge is highly urban even in York Region, people board at random locations evenly distributed throughout the line, and there will be thousands of high density units constructed over the next decade. Commuter rail is completely inappropriate for the Yonge corridor, and GO is not an alternative.
Although GO suffers from chronic parking shortages, the lots at Langstaff GO typically only fill up to 75% of capacity, even on the busiest of days. Meanwhile, the parking lot at Finch Station is completely full by 8 am. There just isn't any demand for improved GO service, and that is because commuter rail is the wrong mode for Yonge St.
kEiThZ
Superstar
I am from the 416 and I support this extension and I think it should be built irrespective of whether the DRL is built or not. The reality is that most of the riders from Finch today as Yorkies accessing the system at Finch. This includes a number of Steeles and Finch bus riders (not just VIVA and YRT patrons). I don't think the extension will really increase congestion on the Yonge line substantially. I am more concerned about the added ridership that'll come from all those LRTs connecting to the Yonge line. And while I was worried about congestion before, I think the short-turning will actually dramatically improve service for those south of Finch. Every second train will now be substantially emptier than in the past given the reduced ridership at Finch after the extension. Combine this with all the capacity and frequency improvements and I really think congestion issues will be a lot less substantial down the road. The only obstacle that remains will be Yonge/Bloor. Even with additional room on the train, dwell times at Y/B will continue to make it the choke point for the system. It shows the need for the DRL. And it does need to get built sooner or later. But to me it does not mean that it absolutely has to get built before the Yonge extension.
It's unfortunate that any congestion from the extension will come on top of the congestion that's there today. But that's largely a fault of His Blondness. If you want to blame someone for not getting the DRL, blame Miller and Giambrone not the Yorkies. York region correctly prioritized subways for these corridors. Miller prioritized trams for most of the city. That 10 billion (probably closer to 12 or even 15 when all is said and done) would have finished the Sheppard line, and given us a BD extension to Scarborough Town Centre, an at-grade LRT to Malvern Town Centre, and the Eglinton West line as originally intended with an added extension out to the airport. Instead, Miller chose LRT. Why blame the Yorkies for that?
It's unfortunate that any congestion from the extension will come on top of the congestion that's there today. But that's largely a fault of His Blondness. If you want to blame someone for not getting the DRL, blame Miller and Giambrone not the Yorkies. York region correctly prioritized subways for these corridors. Miller prioritized trams for most of the city. That 10 billion (probably closer to 12 or even 15 when all is said and done) would have finished the Sheppard line, and given us a BD extension to Scarborough Town Centre, an at-grade LRT to Malvern Town Centre, and the Eglinton West line as originally intended with an added extension out to the airport. Instead, Miller chose LRT. Why blame the Yorkies for that?
Last edited:
kEiThZ
Superstar
And given the critical nature of the Yonge line as the spine of this city, I would add PSDs to that mix as well. The city can more easily take a stoppage on the Bloor-Danforth line than on the Yonge line. Forget the extension, just think what'll happen if you get a stoppage after adding all those connecting LRT lines.
Second_in_pie
Senior Member
I mostly agree with you. But I think that RH Go has a lot of potential. It just needs two things: rapid E-W routes (At Highway 7, Finch/Hydro Corridor, Sheppard, Eglinton, Queen,) and better service. Right now, it's barely faster than taking the bus and subway, but if it was electrified, had better service and some sort of integrated fare, I think it would be a much better option for people traveling long distances, and would work well in conjunction with the Yonge subway and other E-W routes.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Replacing a continuous parade of buses north of Finch with another parade of buses makes no sense and may not even give you more capacity.
The development potential figures listed in the report are laughably low and don't come anywhere close to covering proposed developments, let alone the vast future developments that the area will see, developments that will not materialize without the subway extension. There's empty land around other subway stations but A) does/will the city even permit significant development there? and B) are developers/buyers/leasers going to make it happen?
But there's many benefits aside from development. The mileage put in by overlapping bus north of Finch is staggeringly wasteful. A more northern terminus means a one-seat ride for more people, and travel times will go down, so ridership will increase all over the place. GO cannot duplicate the service an extension north of Finch will provide. You won't get a single additional person out of their car or get people out and about and generate new rides out of thin air without extending the subway. It's not about 'can BRT handle the projected demand' because that demand won't exist without a subway extension. Every dollar spent is a dollar that could have been spent somewhere else, you say, which is true, but there is no way to determine which benefits are better than others. It costs more to build a subway line but it's an investment with fantastic city-building benefits that can't really be given dollar values and turned into ratios that have no real utility.
waterloowarrior
Senior Member
^
Richmond Hill Centre
Langstaff
Richmond Hill Centre
Langstaff
urbanfan89
Active Member
You write as though a 5 minute disruption at Rosedale would *not already* cause the entire YUS line to collapse and strand thousands of commuters. This is analogous as arguing "We shouldn't extend Highway 4XX, because if there is a multicar pileup more people will be stuck in traffic".
The DRL is useless to a commuter at Richmond Hill who is stranded by a breakdown on the Yonge line, and it's not an "either-or" choice.
Second_in_pie
Senior Member
HOLY CRAP! That is what Langstaff is supposed to look like?
...Impressive. Richmond Hill Centre looks awesome too, but I was already expecting something rather grand, so it comes as less of a surprise
Well it sure looks nice. I wonder if the entire Yonge/Highway 7 corridor will end up looking like this 50 years down the road. There's certainly a lot of room for development like that, and it doesn't have to be nearly the scale of VCC/RHC/MTC. But the entire Highway 7 corridor between the 400 and McCowan Road is ripe for development/redevelopment. Like literally, there's almost nothing there right now.
...Impressive. Richmond Hill Centre looks awesome too, but I was already expecting something rather grand, so it comes as less of a surprise
Well it sure looks nice. I wonder if the entire Yonge/Highway 7 corridor will end up looking like this 50 years down the road. There's certainly a lot of room for development like that, and it doesn't have to be nearly the scale of VCC/RHC/MTC. But the entire Highway 7 corridor between the 400 and McCowan Road is ripe for development/redevelopment. Like literally, there's almost nothing there right now.
drum118
Superstar
Considering where the development is going to be and GO station, GO all the way if you are going to the city core. The RH line is going to be upgraded to allow faster service to the core.
If you want to go to some place in the east and a GO station is near to an east-west route, GO all the way as it will cut your travel time by going east compare to the subway that will go west and then south as well increasing your travel time.
If GO put more stations on the line like like they should as well run 10-15 minute local service, people will take GO and more so if fares are fully integrated than the subway.
If you are going west, then a subway/LRT would be the way to go. Service to RHC will be every 6 minutes at peak and 10 off peak considering every other subway is going north of Steeles in the first place. With LRT, you can reduce the headway at any time.
If you want to go to some place in the east and a GO station is near to an east-west route, GO all the way as it will cut your travel time by going east compare to the subway that will go west and then south as well increasing your travel time.
If GO put more stations on the line like like they should as well run 10-15 minute local service, people will take GO and more so if fares are fully integrated than the subway.
If you are going west, then a subway/LRT would be the way to go. Service to RHC will be every 6 minutes at peak and 10 off peak considering every other subway is going north of Steeles in the first place. With LRT, you can reduce the headway at any time.
Ansem
Banned
Would that include maintenance and operating fees?
Ansem
Banned
That would help the line the way it is now. Add a extension on top of it and it will be worse than before. Montreal has the signaling system and automated trains and it changed nothing. The orange line is overcrowded. They pray the new trains will solve the problem.
So? What difference does it make for those waiting for the train south of FInch?
You don't get something. As of now, there is an empty train leaving Finch every 2 minutes and the line is overcrowded...
How on earth having an empty train leaving Finch every 5 minutes would improve the line south of Finch?????
Please explain your logic...
Montreal has the same scenario and the result is the same. The line is worst than before and a train leaves Montreal Henri-Bourassa station every 2 minutes as well.
You must have noticed that I've never said anything about the Spadina extension. The line can take more commuter. Yonge can't.
TTC fine with the extension???
Get your facts, No DRL or Bloor-Yonge renovation they are not fine with it at all.
Last edited: