Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[salsa]

Relief line must open before Yonge North subway extension, Metrolinx says

Lol, I see that some York Region people are not taking this news too well:

"In an interview Thursday, Markham Mayor Frank Scarpitti, a vocal proponent of the Yonge Extension, called the new Metrolinx report 'an about face' and said the agency has 'some explaining to do.'

"He suggested Metrolinx was kowtowing to the interests of Toronto and its mayor. 'Maybe Metrolinx has become "Torontolinx," I’m not sure. Maybe Mayor John Tory got appointed to the chair of "Torontolinx" overnight,' he said.

"Scarpitti asserted the 'Yonge subway is not going to take a back seat to any project in the GTA' and called on Premier Doug Ford to publicly confirm the provincial government will proceed with both projects."

 

[44 North]

a) It's not really a DELAY; there's never been a firm timetable for any of this stuff. Indeed, since Tory just announced the DRL-south is opening 2 years earlier, I could argue YSNE also just got moved up 2 years!

b) There is no indication, not from Metrolinx, not from Toronto staff, not from Toronto council, that a just-to-Steeles extension in any way would mitigate the capacity concerns or is in any way under consideration. So you might as well support a just-to-Cummer extension or a just-to-Wedgewood extension or a just-to-Golden Star extension. What problem are you solving there?

All the residents who live here [pictured below] will be getting on the subway whether you leave it at Finch, extend it to Steeles or to 7. It's 2019 - why are people on this thread still supporting a non-existent to-Steeles extension that is unfeasible politically, non-sensical in terms of policy and meaningless in terms of transportation patterns? Given the built form in the area in the early 1970s, I'm pretty sure you would have barely supported an extension to Sheppard, much less said, "Oh, it totally makes sense to go all the way to Steeles, so the cows can ride trains too."

Ah - yeah, this is Yonge from Cummer to Steeles in 1973, a year before Finch Station opened. If you think building a subway to HERE "in the first place" totally made sense but a subway north of here in 2030 doesn't, well, I'm just not sure I agree with your logic.


And DRL to Steeles? Even more baffling. No one is seriously suggesting it go that far north (certainly not before 2050) or that it's necessary to achieve the desired capacity. Honestly, no offence but you must be living in a world different from mine, where something physical actually happens when you hit Steeles Avenue; something changes, like human beings become minotaurs or you're suddenly transported to 1930s earth where you have to not save a young social worker from being hit by a car or you suddenly find yourself in a winter wonderland with street lamp mysteriously shining. Because otherwise, all this "I fully support X to Steeles" only makes sense in the abstract.

I don't really see the need to go frantic/manic. People have suggestions, and write them. Kinda the point of a forum. Also phasing projects is pretty commonplace, even here. RL is being phased, as was Line 1 and 2 extensions in the past. Opening YNSE to Steeles before continuing to the hinterland of the outer suburbs actually sounds like a reasonable compromise.

Also a RL to Steeles shouldn't be "baffling". Think of RL as an upgraded DMLRT, which it arguably is. York Region wanted that thing going well north of Steeles in the 00s. Well this wouldn't go as far and could be in the '30s. And naturally you don't see it, but there is a big difference between what's north and south of Steeles. You can literally see this right on Steeles. One side has high-density areas going back to the 60s-70s, the other very clearly doesn't. Be it at McCowan, Don Mills, Jane, or Bathurst (which is particularly pronounced). It's pretty obvious, and showing a low-quality render of some unbuilt condo doesn't change this.

 

[lead82]

The RL should go all the way north to Steeles. Go up Don Mills from Pape until Finch, then veer east towards the massive employment area to the east of the 404. There is lots of open land there and huge employment buildings including IBM, TD, Tangerine and many others. That would provide a new route for folks who live in Scarborough and North York a way around the city but also a fast way into the city without riding Line 1.

I honestly think ML and the TTC have messed up big time. RL south will not alleviate anything. There is enough latent demand now that any demand reduced will be quickly filled by all the people who are now waiting 2-3 trains at Bloor to get on. It may relieve that for a short time but it won’t solve anything.

The bigger problem I see is the severe unreliability of the subway now. Line 1 is a shit show. Almost every day there are huge delays, or issues that cause parts of the line to be blocked. Just this afternoon there was no service between Bloor and Lawrence. Followed by more issues throughout the afternoon rush hour. The new signal system may help but the whole line is creaking and isn’t well maintained.

 

[micheal_can]

RL North along Don Mills to Sheppard makes the most sense, but where should it go from there? I'm not that familiar with that part of the city. Seneca college? Downtown Markham as a terminus?

1) That first depends on where we want the current Bloor line extended to. Will it swing north and keep going north?

2) Is Sheppard line heading towards Pickering?

So, if we assume that Bloor heads north, and Sheppard heads east, then DRL should end up somewhere near the 404, maybe to Unionville GO.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The RL should go all the way north to Steeles. Go up Don Mills from Pape until Finch, then veer east towards the massive employment area to the east of the 404. There is lots of open land there and huge employment buildings including IBM, TD, Tangerine and many others. That would provide a new route for folks who live in Scarborough and North York a way around the city but also a fast way into the city without riding Line 1.

I honestly think ML and the TTC have messed up big time. RL south will not alleviate anything. There is enough latent demand now that any demand reduced will be quickly filled by all the people who are now waiting 2-3 trains at Bloor to get on. It may relieve that for a short time but it won’t solve anything.

The bigger problem I see is the severe unreliability of the subway now. Line 1 is a shit show. Almost every day there are huge delays, or issues that cause parts of the line to be blocked. Just this afternoon there was no service between Bloor and Lawrence. Followed by more issues throughout the afternoon rush hour. The new signal system may help but the whole line is creaking and isn’t well maintained.

All caused by budget constraints. No money for this, no money for that, wait till later. Want it fixed sooner than later, then we have to pay for it. Remember the 1995 Russell Hill subway accident, most of which was caused by the lack of funds.

 

[canarob]

I think it should go to finch/Seneca, and then cross the 404 to terminate at Steeles... Either at VP or Warden.

To widen the catchment area you don't want it too close to Yonge, it should branch out a bit. Also, I think there's room for elevated for the northernmost section.

Someone should remind Markham that a Relief line north is going to help them as much as the Yonge extension.

This would absolutely be better than a Yonge Extension for Markham. From a Markhamite's perspective, it's not that most of us don't recognize the safety issues with Yonge/Bloor but it's disappointing where we've gone from a situation where various studies have told us that with ATC there would still be line 1 capacity for the extension, to a scenario where we needed the relief line south to open first but both projects could be underway at once, to now a scenario where we need the relief line north to be built first as well. This isn't a situation where most of us are ignoring evidence; the evidence from experts has changed over the last 10 years or so, presumably as the population swells and travel patterns change.

 

[Neutrino]

@canarob I get the disappointment, but it's due to our politicians of all stripes and at all levels being dishonest and misinformed about the transit system's needs. It's not so much the evidence changing, but politicians and the TTC itself getting a better understanding of what it will take to safely extend Line 1.

 

[nfitz]

... we needed the relief line south to open first but both projects could be underway at once, to now a scenario where we need the relief line north to be built first as well.

Not sure what's changed recently. The new report simply says that DRL south needs to open first - which is the same thing that Toronto council voted to implement many years ago.

Nothing in the new report says that the Yonge extension couldn't open the day after the first phase of the DRL opens. Nor have I heard serious discussion about delaying the Yonge North line until after the DRL is extended to Eglinton (or further north).

The bigger risk is that there is a lack of provincial government support to fund this with the currently political reality. They've made it very clear that funding to come out of development opportunities. I'm not convinced Markham and Vaughan are going to look kindly on the required densification necessary along the Yonge corridor to achieve that.

 

[micheal_can]

Not sure what's changed recently. The new report simply says that DRL south needs to open first - which is the same thing that Toronto council voted to implement many years ago.

Nothing in the new report says that the Yonge extension couldn't open the day after the first phase of the DRL opens. Nor have I heard serious discussion about delaying the Yonge North line until after the DRL is extended to Eglinton (or further north).

The bigger risk is that there is a lack of provincial government support to fund this with the currently political reality. They've made it very clear that funding to come out of development opportunities. I'm not convinced Markham and Vaughan are going to look kindly on the required densification necessary along the Yonge corridor to achieve that.

That only means that the DRL can be built first. Don't forget, we have an election in a few years.

 

[steveintoronto]

^ Previous reports from the agency suggested the Yonge North Extension could be built without overloading the TTC network, and that both the Yonge project and the relief line should proceed together “in an integrated way.”

https://www.yorkregion.com/news-sto...efore-yonge-north-subway-extension-metrolinx/

In the event, I don't think Metrolinx knew what they were talking about then (at lest the exec) and they still don't now. The exec is too busy putting 'escape clauses' in their reports for when they're proven wrong later.

 

[Rainforest]

^ Previous reports from the agency suggested the Yonge North Extension could be built without overloading the TTC network, and that both the Yonge project and the relief line should proceed together “in an integrated way.”

https://www.yorkregion.com/news-sto...efore-yonge-north-subway-extension-metrolinx/

In the event, I don't think Metrolinx knew what they were talking about then (at lest the exec) and they still don't now. The exec is too busy putting 'escape clauses' in their reports for when they're proven wrong later.

Oddly, that may have something to do with the provincial subway-takeover plans. As long as TTC remains a city agency, Yonge line's overcrowding is primarily a city's headache. The province could try to force the city to accept the Yonge North extension without DRL, and then let the city handle the consequences.

On the other hand, if Metrolinx becomes directly responsible for operating all subways, the super-crowding of the Yonge line becomes its own problem that can't be pushed onto someone else's lap. Like every large bureaucracy, Metrolinx doesn't want to acquire a PITA, and therefore it tries to thread more carefully.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Probably true. Unfortunately I don’t believe the leadership of the Government of Ontario gives much of a damn about the wellbeing of Toronto. The consequences won’t be felt for 10+ years, and in the meantime the provincial government can reap the benefits.

 

[steveintoronto]

Oddly, that may have something to do with the provincial subway-takeover plans.

Yeah, it's just a little too 'coincidental' that their 'views' would be changing with the changing landscape. "Oh, we were wrong then, but we're right now". Their views are just as suspect now as they were then.

But beyond niggling over the latest 'view'...I sense this being a deflection for something much bigger coming. A "one size will fit all, take it or leave it" plan. And no credit to the present jokers, as opposed to the previous jesters, a much more common-sense plan called "None of the Above" will come out of it.

And that's RER to do it all. No more subways per-se, but some tunnel sections of RER single level EMUs. Crosslinx has given them practical experience of how to bore tunnels for LRT, it will be easier to bore them for OLE EMUs (overhead catenary) and connect them to extant and new GO lines.

Uploading the subway offers them a stark choice: Continue doing it the slow, heavy, expensive way with a forced transfer to continue out to the exurbs, or do it the modern way, the choice many other cities have made: Regional into tunnel where necessary. Uploaded subway will suddenly have to directly compete with more modern and affordable methods, let alone faster, more comfortable and easier to maintain.

Bit of a no-brainer, but alas...Toronto's not had a good history on adapting to successful change. In defence of Toronto, the SRT, which was a leap at modernization, was thrust upon us by the Province as linear propulsion, and of the attractive kind, not repulsive. Krausse-Maffei dumped it on Toronto when they realized that attractive propulsion was doomed to fail in so many ways. They had the vision of mag-lev, which is repulsive traction, and self limiting in distance, and able to 'float' the vehicle on the forces, not rigid distance held in place by wheels that was doomed to fail whenever it snowed, or accumulated too much jetsam.

"EMU" could still be 'metro type vehicles' like SRT, but larger, and of course, orthodox motor traction. This is the largest selling vehicle type/system *by far* right now around the world. For good reason. Almost all manufacturers sell a model line with three (or more) widths and lengths available off the shelf for different sized systems and needs, and in third rail or catenary, either the same as LRT voltage, or up to 25kVAC, which is the current int'l standard for heavy rail propulsion, and what Metrolinx have chosen for GO. For good reason. It's much cheaper and easier to distribute compared to third rail, and the available performance from motors much higher. And it's far more immune to ice, snow and cold weather than third rail.

Crossrail in London is done this way, in tunnels of a smaller bore than the Eglinton Crosslinx, and using mainline trains running out on the Network Rail system to exurbs in other counties. Crossrail is having some last minute funding glitches, but the physical model remains the example many cities are now considering the new standard. Some Japanese cities have been doing it for generations, this isn't rocket science. And at least a few persons at Metrolinx must realize this.

Here's the example of the "Northern City Line" 'tube'...bored to mainline size (same as the TTC subway in bored tunnel diameter) and on and off operated by both mainline and London Underground at different times, always using mainline stock from when it was first built. Yet another example of the limitation of TTC track gauge to disallow such interline operation onto mainline. This line has also been operated with standard tube trains.

See: https://www.citymetric.com/transpor...city-line-history-moorgate-finsbury-park-4277

The modern replacement trains: (These operate on both third rail at 750VDC and catenary on the mainline at 25kVAC)

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

One needs to think 25-50 years down the road when planning subway lines. Some times it will fail to meet x numbers like a lot of centre development back in the 90's and one has to look at the North York Centre station that wasn't plan for that it has a very high ridership today.

You need to look at current ridership on routes feeding into the Yonge Line today to start off with. 35% will move to the DRL and possible more. You need to look at what can happen for land use along the current corridor as well for the DRL.

One only has to look at Yonge to see the amount of density coming to it north of Finch to Steeles that will not only replace the 35% riders using the DRL, but adding to it. this also applies going south from Finch.

You look at the current mess on the Yonge line today, what are you going to do in 25 years when you can't get on it due the amount of development underway, plan and the unknown ones to surface in the coming years??

The current plan for the DRL going to Line 2 is going to do nothing for Line 1. Even going to Eglinton will be a drop in the bucket. Only when you get to Finch, you will see a huge change and going to Steeles will help more, even though the ridership maybe lower than plan for.

Regardless what happens, you will need another Yonge Line to the point the 2nd Yonge Line is the one thats goes into the 905. It should be an express line south of Steeles and a different alignment south of Eglinton to the Waterfront as the current stations will never handle the ridership of 2 lines.

Given the fact how long it has taken the DRL to get to where it is, how long do you think it will take to get to Eglinton, Sheppard, Finch and Steeles?? Most of it will never happen in our lifetime. The idea of the line is already 109 years old after it was approved on Jan 1, 1910.

What world we live in is based on what can see today and coming down the road and I see a shit load of new riders, development and the way we do things today coming at us from all angles.

The idea of the DRL is 110 years old? Most people don't even live that long as we all know, so here's a good example of transit plans that are never follow through.

 

[TransitBart]

Oddly, that may have something to do with the provincial subway-takeover plans. As long as TTC remains a city agency, Yonge line's overcrowding is primarily a city's headache. The province could try to force the city to accept the Yonge North extension without DRL, and then let the city handle the consequences.

On the other hand, if Metrolinx becomes directly responsible for operating all subways, the super-crowding of the Yonge line becomes its own problem that can't be pushed onto someone else's lap. Like every large bureaucracy, Metrolinx doesn't want to acquire a PITA, and therefore it tries to thread more carefully.

WTF is a PITA? Good bread, but I have a feeling that is not what was intended.