Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

Nevertheless, the TTC's vice-chair objected to the subway plan at yesterday's commission meeting. "If you had $2.4 billion, is this the best way to spend public money at this point in our history?" asked Councillor Joe Mihevc. "We are over-romanticizing the subway," he said. "We need to be more complex in our thinking. That's why we're heading down the road to light-rail transit."

No, Mr. Mihevc, we are *overbuilding* the subway. Almost $300M will be spent on Steeles station alone, and there's hundreds of millions of dollars in contingency that by virtue of being earmarked as much will guarantee it gets spent (they're hoping 'Madrid magic' will lower the cost). What's romantic about extending the Yonge line north of Finch? It needs to be done, and it doesn't need to be complex.

Its' in bold

She was countering the idea that the money should go elsewhere, not countering the DRL. She does not want to rob Peter to pay Paul, and she's not wrong.
 
According to my numbers giving to TTC, opening day ridership for peak time will be 2,300, far far below a threshold of a subway.

If fare integration took place by then as well come 2031, the 8,800 peak riders from RHC will will be far less.

So, just to keep track, you're in the "anemic traffic for Yonge extension means it is not needed" camp, as opposed to the "flood of traffic from Yonge extension means it is not viable" one? You may want to rebut those who make the latter claims sometime.
 
I think the key is the 2031 ridership #s of 8,800? Aren't many TTC stations below this anyway? What's Finch currently?

I have no idea, but I can tell you that -- if memory serves -- Finch has the highest ridership of any station at which subway lines do not intersect. In other words, only Union, Yonge-Bloor, and St. George are higher. (Though Sheppard will surely surpass Finch sooner or later.)
 
So, just to keep track, you're in the "anemic traffic for Yonge extension means it is not needed" camp, as opposed to the "flood of traffic from Yonge extension means it is not viable" one? You may want to rebut those who make the latter claims sometime.

Since the yonge line is currently full, the ridership from the extension could easily overwhelm the current system, while still not being high enough to justify the extension on ridership alone.
 
This DRL versus Yonge Extension stuff is a completely false choice. Even assuming that there is limited capital funding available, the extension of the subway increases the need for relief of the Yonge line and therefore makes the DRL more likely. At the TTC's presentation the other day, they kept going on about how the DRL is their absolute worst-case scenario and they would avoid building it if at all possible. Only extreme overcrowding on the Yonge line resulting from the extension could result in it being built.

Here's perhaps a more reasonable choice: eliminate the massively complex and disruptive $500 million, 6-year reconstruction of Yonge and Bloor that would no longer be needed if the DRL is built. Then, postpone construction on, say, the Scarborough-Malvern line (the second line to Malvern that is already a low priority to the TTC), worth about $800 million. You're at $1.3 billion already. The TTC projected the cost of the DRL to Queen as being $2.1 billion, on an alignment that would be far more expensive than the partially surface Front/Rail Corridor alignment. If that knocked off ~$400 million (a conservative figure considering how much it apparently costs to tunnel in this city), you're down to $1.7 billion. There's only a $400 million gap. The province and feds committed $250 million to the Front Street Extension, a waterfront project that isn't likely to ever get built. Commit that money or other waterfront money to a project that would help the waterfront more than any other, and you're down to $150 million, or less than the TTC is spending on the one overbuild bus terminal at Steeles. In other words, easily affordable. Or, even better! Reduce the preposterously high cost of subway construction in this city so we can build all the lines.

There are over 350 buses an hour going south to Finch station. The case for the subway extension is absolutely unimpeachable.
 
She's the vice president of VIVA. Pushing for better transit for the 905 is called doing her job.

Plus, those buses don't turn at Steeles. They keep going, on Yonge Street, to Finch Station. So while her job is rightly to talk about the bus congestion on HER side of the street everyone who's been in the area knows the problem is equally bad on both sides. Strikes me as obvious, really.

All due respect to people like Khristopher but I sense you really don't know the geography at all. The line will terminate at Richmond Hill's southern boundary. I'm not going to go on Google and measure the distance from Steeles to Hwy 7 but it sure isn't very far. 5km?

And as I've said on 20 other posts, provincial policy is that Yonge/7 is becoming a major growth and transit node. Combine that with the bus traffic, the absurdity of the current Finch terminus and 20 other factors and it's abundantly obvious why the line to RH is anything but laughable.

The only thing that's even remotely debatable in my mind is where it would rank in priority alongside a DRL etc but since one is a tangible project and the other mostly exists on the UT boards and transit blogs, it's a no brainer there as well.

Other fast notes:
-As some others have pointed out, TTC did not get $2.4 billion and then get told they should spend it on the subway. The money is FOR the subway, not some general account. That ship has sailed and there is no choice in the matter. I'm not sure why TTC is being so obtuse.

-Drum118: the only option IN Richmond Hill for a yard is to the north but the TTC has other options, the best of which seems to be expanding Wilson. To get the trains over, of course, they'd have to complete the Shep line to Downsview but that strikes me and a lot of people here as a win-win.
 
A YRT representative at the meeting on Tuesday stated that they are looking at building long tail-tracks at Richmond Hill station to store trains overnight. 275m of tail tracks would be enough to store six trains. I'm thinking that two more in the station platforms and one more in the pocket track north of Finch and the TTC would have enough trains for the first 45 min of service each day. There should be plenty of time for the trains from Wilson to get to Richmond Hill.
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This is not the place to complain about the lack of plans for a DRL, so stop it! The Yonge extension is simply a result of York Region creating a transit plan that included subway expansion. Essentially every transit project desired by every region is included in the Metrolinx plan.

However, those who currently run the City of Toronto do not want a DRL. They do not want new subway south of Steeles, and they do not want to solve Toronto's transit problems. Stop complaining about the province, stop complaining about York Region, and stop complaining about the Yonge extension. Miller, Giambrone, and city council are entirely responsible for the lack of subway expansion in Toronto. Complain about them.
 
This is not the place to complain about the lack of plans for a DRL, so stop it! The Yonge extension is simply a result of York Region creating a transit plan that included subway expansion. Essentially every transit project desired by every region is included in the Metrolinx plan.

Chuck, this is the place to discuss the plans for managing the additional ridership an extension to RH will add to the Yonge Line, and the TTC's attempt to tack on all these requirements in condition for supporting the extension. The DRL, as part of the ridership management is part of this discussion. After all, it's about building a network, and not one-off projects.

Very few people here are complaining about a RH extension. They are not complaining about York Region. The discussion as to how to meet the increased demands is part and parcel. So I don't see the point of your complaint, unless it is directed at 2 or 3 comments here about how a RH subway is not needed, but that's not related to the DRL discussion.
 
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I thought Metrolinx was supposed to depoliticize transit funding. So far that has been far from the case.

I still think that, Urban Toronto as a whole should submit it's own plan for Toronto Transit. We might not be real transit planners, but there's a lot of good ideas on this board, and a lot of local knowledge.

A while ago I did a few polls. A majority of respondents supported making the Eglinton line subway, finishing the Sheppard line (as subway) and replacing the SRT (with subway). I don't think I ever did a DRL poll, but I'm sure it would it would also get a majority.

I just think it would be nice if UT as a whole had a plan that the majority of us agreed with and was actually doable and affordable and MAKES SENSE.
 
So, just to keep track, you're in the "anemic traffic for Yonge extension means it is not needed" camp, as opposed to the "flood of traffic from Yonge extension means it is not viable" one? You may want to rebut those who make the latter claims sometime.

No I am not in the camp that we don't build subway, but build them where and when they are really needed first and before this one.

At the end of the day, the extension will happen from what my numbers say not allowing for fare integration.

For most ppl, there is no middle as it's either buses or subway.

It's I want to get to one end to the other end as fast as I can and I don't care how it's done or what Happens to the sections between those point as I count more than the locals.

As Joe said "If I had $2.4 billion for building transit only, is this the place for all the Money or do I use it on things that will give me a bigger bang for the buck"? The answer is ""NO"" consider there are other thing that will carry more riders and have a bigger bang.

First bang: subway replace SRT from Kennedy to Sheppard. You are only add a couple million more than the cost to rebuild.

2: Extension to Cloverdale $600 m

3: DRL Depending if it starts at Sheppard or Eglinton that can be open in Phases, $2.1 to $2.9B. On opening day, you move 35% of riders off BD at about 15,000 riders for peak time. It will be faster also.

Time to move from bus to BRT to LRT and then subways.

I have to sit down one day to see what the real $$ figure is for transit needs both in 416 as well 905, but will be far more than what Metrolinx are. TTC along doing a quick shot is close to $15B today and has eat up Move2020 money 100%.

What happens to the 905????? for money????????????
 
This DRL versus Yonge Extension stuff is a completely false choice. Even assuming that there is limited capital funding available, the extension of the subway increases the need for relief of the Yonge line and therefore makes the DRL more likely. At the TTC's presentation the other day, they kept going on about how the DRL is their absolute worst-case scenario and they would avoid building it if at all possible. Only extreme overcrowding on the Yonge line resulting from the extension could result in it being built.

Here's perhaps a more reasonable choice: eliminate the massively complex and disruptive $500 million, 6-year reconstruction of Yonge and Bloor that would no longer be needed if the DRL is built. Then, postpone construction on, say, the Scarborough-Malvern line (the second line to Malvern that is already a low priority to the TTC), worth about $800 million. You're at $1.3 billion already. The TTC projected the cost of the DRL to Queen as being $2.1 billion, on an alignment that would be far more expensive than the partially surface Front/Rail Corridor alignment. If that knocked off ~$400 million (a conservative figure considering how much it apparently costs to tunnel in this city), you're down to $1.7 billion. There's only a $400 million gap. The province and feds committed $250 million to the Front Street Extension, a waterfront project that isn't likely to ever get built. Commit that money or other waterfront money to a project that would help the waterfront more than any other, and you're down to $150 million, or less than the TTC is spending on the one overbuild bus terminal at Steeles. In other words, easily affordable. Or, even better! Reduce the preposterously high cost of subway construction in this city so we can build all the lines.

There are over 350 buses an hour going south to Finch station. The case for the subway extension is absolutely unimpeachable.

First all, there is no 350 buses going north of Steeles and therefore subway to Steeles is a given even 20 years ago.

I'm in 2 camp regarding the waterfront as I see both LRT's and Subway. The big issue for me is how the subway is to get north of Danforth. Either by Victoria or Don Mills has be come mute, but its underground and a subway.

An LRT from the core to BD and north "is" and will "BE" over capacity either in year one or year 2. If you are going to take the DM LRT line into the 905 as plan, you cannot run 3-6 unit trains on the surface.

Yes you can save $600m by deferring reconstruction of Bloor/Yonge interchange with the opening of the DRL, but we are still going to have to do it sooner or later.

Absolute worst-case scenario as noted at TTC is the wrong way to look at it and is coming from one person and the same person who wrote the report. It has to happen sooner than later.
 
It would be a huge mistake for this to get approved by the city and the government. Richmond Hill? Seriously? This all makes me laugh.
People argue about building a line on Eglinton and say it's not worth it, but a line to Richmond Hill is? Boggles my mind.

You're one of those people that downplay the amount of traffic and density there is on Yonge Street north of Steeles, aren't you? Take a trip up one day. It would help your cause.
 
You're one of those people that downplay the amount of traffic and density there is on Yonge Street north of Steeles, aren't you? Take a trip up one day. It would help your cause.

I for one am not against this project but you're really going about the wrong away arguing for it ... just so there are no misconceptions I'm on Viva blue at least 3 times a week.

For one, although there is some density a little bit North Steeles in the form of apartment complexes. There really isn't much as of yet toward RHC ... at all! Arguing that there's enough built up right now to support a subway would actually justify many of the opponents of this project ... as there is no where CLOSE enough based on the density alone.

But this is the argument to make:
1) We typically like to plan things out rather then wait for a situation to get dire, I'm referring to transit. There are huge calls for intensification around the RHC lands that will by any means justify a subway on its own right. If it occurs the way they plan that is.

2) More importantly ... you have to remember that RHC is a York region Hub!!!!!! For the most part, anyone taking transit to the subway goes South on Yonge street. In other words, if Yonge street North of Steeles was full of farms one could still argue a subway / LRT / some other form of rapid transit (but that's a different matter) is needed :)

Get it?

Good.
 
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