Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

I really want to see some origin-destination models for the RHC extension, because I am positive that well over 90% of riders that will be boarding at RHC will be heading south of Bloor. I simply cannot see the numbers of people getting off at North York Centre, or Eglinton, or St. Clair, or even Bloor that some here are claiming. Even given that, GO does have stations along that route that touch or approximate the equivilant location on the Yonge line, Old Cummer, etc could, given fare intergration with the TTC (shame on the TTC for this) these neighbourhoods and in fact would provide connections to a few of the planned TC routes. This is why the logical thing was to push for GO improvments first and subway expansion later, York decided to go for the low hanging fruit as they've had previous success in getting the Spadina line approved that they ignored the GO part of the equation.

Ironically York has now turned it's attenting to the Bolton Go line and you should expect to hear them pushing for this line to get priority from GO.

I'm afraid however that the arguments that riders will heading to North York Centre, Eglinton, St. Clair are false and are clouding the issue obervation and experience have told us that it is getting more and more difficult to board the subway south of St. Clair (nearly impossible south of Bloor) each morning. If we expect residents of St. Clair to have to wait 2 - 3 trains simply for the privilege of riding their subway than we have a problem.
 
It's astronomically unlikely that 90% of those who board at RHC will continue on south of Bloor. Don't underestimate the number of jobs (and malls and schools) between Richmond Hill and Bloor. Even amongst those that will stay on until Bloor (and lots will, perhaps even a sizable majority), a huge amount of them will get off at Bloor. I'd honestly be surprised if more than 1/3 of RHC boarders continue on south of Bloor, not just because it is mathematically certain that many will get off along the way, but because GO becomes increasingly useful the farther away from Union your trip begins and the closer to Union your trip ends.
 
I think we all agree that the Yonge extension to RHC is needed. Improved GO services to RHC is also needed. I think if both are done, then the amount of people using the subway from RHC to go south of Bloor will be fairly small, maybe 20-25% of riders. The rest will get off in North York (Steeles - Sheppard), or Midtown (Eglinton - Bloor).

I'm not sure why people are mentioning that people at St. Clair will have to wait 3 trains to board in the morning. If TTC goes ahead with its operation plan, then only every 2nd or every 3rd train will go up to RHC in the morning. The rest will turn back at Finch. That means, 2 out of 3 trains will have plenty of room for passengers down the line since they will start at Finch and only contain local Toronto passengers. I think that will deal with the morning capacity on opening day and until 2020.

The main problem will be the PM rush IMHO. All trains will go to RHC, but the downtown stations are too small and narrow. As more people ride, some may wait up to 3-4 trains to board, but the platforms will need to be expanded to allow for those patrons to wait safely. Otherwise it becomes a huge hazard of people falling and causing massive delays. How can this situation be improved? Turning back trains wont work, so the only other viable solution is to run shuttle buses from Union to Rosedale, by making Yonge street a bus only route during PM peak.
 
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lead82 said:
The main problem will be the PM rush IMHO. All trains will go to RHC, but the downtown stations are too small and narrow. As more people ride, some may wait up to 3-4 trains to board, but the platforms will need to be expanded to allow for those patrons to wait safely. Otherwise it becomes a huge hazard of people falling and causing massive delays. How can this situation be improved? Turning back trains wont work, so the only other viable solution is to run shuttle buses from Union to Rosedale, by making Yonge street a bus only route during PM peak.
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That's the justification of an east end DRL - it would take the vast majority of Danforth East riders off the Yonge subway, or in the contraflow direction.
 
I completely agree, but for some reason TTC and other transit agencies (Metrolinx) seem to use AM peak period as the most constrained one. While that may be so, I would argue that congestion is worse in the evening as the system needs more time to get people out of the core during that time.

Sadly, DRL will most likely not be built in our lifetimes if the same TTC and city politics continue.
 
If the AM rush is more constrained than the PM rush, it's because people need to get to work on time...but they don't need to get home on time.
 
lead82 said:
I completely agree, but for some reason TTC and other transit agencies (Metrolinx) seem to use AM peak period as the most constrained one. While that may be so, I would argue that congestion is worse in the evening as the system needs more time to get people out of the core during that time.

Sadly, DRL will most likely not be built in our lifetimes if the same TTC and city politics continue.
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It's industry standard to use AM rush because you a very high number of people going towards employment areas in a very narrow timeframe. In the PM rush you have a more scattered trip pattern as people run around doing errands and there is a much wider range of time people get off work. More people use the system but not at the same time and not in the same direction. It generally averages out to less pressure on a given service.
 
drum118 said:
As Joe said "If I had $2.4 billion for building transit only, is this the place for all the Money or do I use it on things that will give me a bigger bang for the buck"? The answer is ""NO"" consider there are other thing that will carry more riders and have a bigger bang.
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You can tell Joe that if I had $2.4 billion I'd get a few really nice guitars, a slightly bigger house (but not a mansion), have a kick ass home theatre and I'd go on more vacations. I'd give a bunch to charity and maybe give a few hundred mil for subway expansion - but not to TTC.

But you know what? I don't have $2.4 billion. Neither does Joe Mihevc and neither does the TTC. The Yonge subway extension proposal, however does. When he understands this, TTC will be able to move out of the "denial" stage.

And just one minor comment on Taal's very reasonable post - the RHC intensification isn't just something there are "calls for." It's provincial policy.
There will be at least 20-30,000 new people moving into the immediate area of the station (which, as you note, is already a transit hub) and that development will be specifically geared to being transit-oriented, for what that's worth. (As is probably on other threads, Peter Calthorpe is doing the development plan for Langstaff.)

I'm not directing that "criticism" at you but rather at the people who think Toronto stops north of Finch because the subway does and who, in particular think there is "nothing north of Steeles" and won't be for a long time. There are still some of those people here though, generally, the discussion is taking place at a more sophisticated level.
 
RedRocket191 said:
It's industry standard to use AM rush because you a very high number of people going towards employment areas in a very narrow timeframe. In the PM rush you have a more scattered trip pattern as people run around doing errands and there is a much wider range of time people get off work. More people use the system but not at the same time and not in the same direction. It generally averages out to less pressure on a given service.
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It's also because both high schools and work tend to start around 9am, while schools tend to let out around 3pm and work around 5pm.
 
Friday, January 23, 2009
Toronto Transit Commission approves extending the Yonge Subway

At its meeting on Wednesday, January 21, the Toronto Transit Commission approved proposals to extend the 1 Yonge - University - Spadina subway northward beyond Finch Station to the Richmond Hill in York Region.

The Commission approved the project with similar conditions to those approved by the City of Toronto Executive Committee at its meeting on January 5.

You can read the TTC staff report on extending the subway here (.pdf) and a list of additional costs for the project here. (.pdf)

Toronto City Council will consider the TTC and Excecutive Committee recommendations during its meeting on January 27 and 28.
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as suspected, the TTC approved the Yonge extension, but with all the extra expenses, similarily to the Executive Committe
 
It's true AM peak is useful in planning for transportation networks in general; however, the applicability of this is less relevant for the Yonge Subway. In the PM peak period, the capacity is constrained by the number of people who can safely wait on the platforms, whereas in the AM peak period, it's how quickly people can get out.

Moreover, unlike in more mixed areas of the city, the spike in trips downtown is only during the 4pm-5:30pm period, and a much greater spike, as almost all trips are work-based. Very few school based trips take place on the subway, relative to the work-based trips, since a major proportion of work-based trips originate in suburbs where household children would be traveling to nearby schools.
 
I have noticed in the past few years, much higher ridership during the day.

It is not uncommon for a train to become standing room only on a train from Kipling to Bloor during the day.
 
Funny you mention that, in the winter I've been noticing higher ridership during the night time (weeknights) going North and South on the YongeU line!

It's standing room only the last few times I've downtown around 9-10pm during the week. Once you get north of Bloor it's more reasonable.

I'm afraid of what will happen once this expansion is complete unless all the measures proposed will be taken to increase capacity.
 
A question for you all?

So once the line is complete, the TTC will be in charge of running / maintaining the line - along with getting all the proceeds correct?

Isn't York region slightly worried about this?

I mean for the first little while it's not a big deal all there aren't too many people starting their trips south right from Yonge.

But once all the calls for intensification complete won't the TTC reep all the transit benefits?

Most of the money the TTC gets is from the subway. Is York region worried about loosing a lot of this $$$ (maybe not loosing, just not gaining).
 
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