Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[Megaton327]

Is it also unreasonable to ask non-residents to help pay for infrastructure that they use but for which they don't pay their fair share towards maintaining?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

No, that's very reasonable. If you read my post, you'd see I'm in favour of road tolls in general, but one of the conditions I think is critical in order to implement them is high-quality transit service that offers a reasonable alternative to a sizable majority of the people who would otherwise need to pay the toll. We are nowhere even remotely close to that.

However, as I said, I think there are a lot of further factors even beyond that which need to be taken into consideration. As @amnesiajune stated Toronto's residential property tax is laughably low compared with other GTA municipalities, and this is largely made possible by 905ers coming into the city for tourism and employment reasons. In addition to working transit, I wholeheartedly agree with you that everyone needs to pay their fair share, and Toronto residential property taxpayers are not presently doing so--before tolls are implemented, I'd like to see Toronto property taxes brought in line with other nearby cities. Once that is done, and there is quality transit, I'd like to see some detailed studies done on the need for, full effects of, and best implementation plan for tolling. Without either in place, the Premier's decision is the only "fair" one.

 

[salsa]

No, that's very reasonable. If you read my post, you'd see I'm in favour of road tolls in general, but one of the conditions I think is critical in order to implement them is high-quality transit service that offers a reasonable alternative to a sizable majority of the people who would otherwise need to pay the toll. We are nowhere even remotely close to that.

I'm not criticizing you specifically. But it's interesting how people expect everyone to pay their taxes, but when it comes to road tolls we can't have that unless it's possible to not pay them. It's somehow fair that transit riders (who are more likely to be poorer) pay around $7 to $8 per person to take the train from Markham to Union, but imposing even a $2 toll for drivers is apparently too much a burden for Ontario families.

We can wait forever until transit is "good enough" sometime in the distant future. But right now the city has to invest $billions into fixing the Gardiner, and that has to be paid for one way or another. It shouldn't be unreasonable to consider asking drivers who use it to contribute something. Charge a toll as low as $2 for now, then gradually increase that over time as transit improvements are implemented.

 

[amnesiajune]

But it's interesting how people expect everyone to pay their taxes, but when it comes to road tolls we can't have that unless it's possible to not pay them.

The problem with road tolls is that if you currently need to drive to get your work, you might need to pay up to $1,000/year more than you currently pay for the same commute. That's where the 407 analogy falls apart - the 407 tolls weren't added onto an existing service, they're a price being put on a new alternative service.

If the province would allow it, it would be nice to fund public transit projects with future road tolls - wait until the alternative RER, DRL, etc. are up and running, and then toll the roads. That also has the benefit of handcuffing future governments to the road toll - they'd need to find some alternative revenue if they wanted to cancel it.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

That was Wynne's argument: wait til RER is online. But it's a straw man. The whole point of the Quick Wins, 10 years ago, was to start building transit (Transit City, Viva, RT in Brampton and Mississauga etc.) so they could justify tolls a few years down the road.

They delayed the Metrolinx Investment strategy until 2012 and then wasted more time with the panel they put together. There will never be enough transit to justify tolls. This is a hare chasing a carrot it will never eat and she's wasted her majority and poisoned the water for years to come. IMHO.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

That was Wynne's argument: wait til RER is online. But it's a straw man. The whole point of the Quick Wins, 10 years ago, was to start building transit (Transit City, Viva, RT in Brampton and Mississauga etc.) so they could justify tolls a few years down the road.

They delayed the Metrolinx Investment strategy until 2012 and then wasted more time with the panel they put together. There will never be enough transit to justify tolls. This is a hare chasing a carrot it will never eat and she's wasted her majority and poisoned the water for years to come. IMHO.

Yup, it's not about sufficiency of transit - it's about complaints by 905 based MPs feeling the heat from a good chunk of their constituents who are anathemic towards expressway tolls even when they don't get affected by it personally.

AoD

 

[sixrings]

Despite disagree with some UrbanTorontonians on how far our system should go. I definitely agree that the whole system is set up so that no building and no tolls happen. What is the point of approving building but then giving delayed funding which can be cancelled by the next politician. But transit people are so starved they will take any announcement even if it has a good chance of never happening. Meanwhile car drivers love the idea of no tolls until transit is finished because they know they will be long dead before any transit is built and even then there will "never be enough transit to justify tolls." The whole thing makes me frustrated living in Toronto and I am a resident who is fortunate enough to be able to walk to groceries, walk to a subway, walk to my doctors. I couldnt imagine living any further into suburbia where they treat transit as if we live in Churchhill or Regina.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

Well, Yonge is only a few thousand riders per hour below saturation.

Actually, it was 11% over capacity south of Yonge as of 2015.

That was Wynne's argument: wait til RER is online. But it's a straw man. The whole point of the Quick Wins, 10 years ago, was to start building transit (Transit City, Viva, RT in Brampton and Mississauga etc.) so they could justify tolls a few years down the road.

They delayed the Metrolinx Investment strategy until 2012 and then wasted more time with the panel they put together. There will never be enough transit to justify tolls. This is a hare chasing a carrot it will never eat and she's wasted her majority and poisoned the water for years to come. IMHO.

Bingo. The whole road tolls discussion never would have happened if the Investment Strategy was implemented, because we would be raising $2 billion annually for all of Toronto's transit needs, and road tolls was never part of that. It was explored and ruled out by Metrolinx, instead promoting:

• A 1% increase in the Harmonized Sales Tax ($1.3 billion)
• A 5¢ increase in the gas tax ($330 million)
• An average charge of 25¢ on all off-street non-residential parking spaces ($350 million)
• A 15% dedication of all development charges ($100 million)

Wynne refused to implement Investment Strategy way back in the lead-up to the 2014 Ontario general election. Fast forward to now, and the City was like 'oh crap, how do we pay for our transit? okay road tolls' and Wynne refused to let that happen either. She is strangling Toronto to maintain her electoral chances in the 905. Even the gas tax increase falls short; Metrolinx recommended it as a tool, but as a 5% increase, not a 4% existing chunk. That just moves money around, leaves the province without some money in their transportation budget (for which they need to cut to other parts of the budget), and falls short of the $1.7+ billion the region requires annually if we're ever going to dig ourseves out of this congested mess.

Wynne has royally fucked it all up from the start, and Tory's stamping around and discussions about road tolls are just fall out from that decision in March 2014.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Bingo. The whole road tolls discussion never would have happened if the Investment Strategy was implemented, because we would be raising $2 billion annually for all of Toronto's transit needs, and road tolls was never part of that. It was explored and ruled out by Metrolinx,

Just to clarify, the $2b was for the entire metrolinx area (ie the GTHA), not just Toronto.

I'd post the recommendations from that panel she commissioned but they seem to have disappeared from the record. Hmm. But suffice it to say, she opted for the hydro sale instead.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

Just to clarify, the $2b was for the entire metrolinx area (ie the GTHA), not just Toronto.

I'd post the recommendations from that panel she commissioned but they seem to have disappeared from the record. Hmm. But suffice it to say, she opted for the hydro sale instead.

Sorry, yes, that's correct: $2 billion annually (for 25 years = $50 billion) was for all of GTHA.

Hydro One sale has so far resulted in a one-time payment of $3.8 billion from the sale of 30% of the company. CUPE is currently suing the government for it, but the government wants to sell another 30% stake in the future, and was targeting to raise $9 billion. Only other revenue sources are Green Bonds, which have raised $1.25 billion in two issues:

• $902 million to Eglinton Crosstown
• $100 million for vivaNext
• $200 million for GO RER
• The rest for non-transit projects

So far, that's just over $5 billion, 10% of what's required, most of which was a one-time payment. Not bad, but still falling short, and resulting in trade-offs.

To get back to the topic of the thread, there's a third green bond issue coming up in February for $800 million, so we'll see if YSNE gets any funding from it, but I think other projects (*cough* Relief Line) are first in line for that money.

 

[Amare]

I honestly think Kathleen is going for 0% approval at this point. Everything she's been doing has been counter-intuitive and this is just another example. She rejects tolls since she faced stiff 905 opposition from MPs, but yet the city proposes its own Toronto-centric alcohol tax and that idea gets rejected as well? Who understands what she's doing anymore.

 

[junctionist]

Rejecting road tolls seems to thin out Wynne's support base. Perhaps some 905ers are relieved now, but they won't be thinking about how they enjoy the status quo at the ballot box. They'll be thinking about some concern they have about the economy or some politician's campaign message. At the same time, it's a memorable betrayal of Toronto progressives and Torontonians who simply want the city to be able to sort out its tax policy without external interference. Otherwise, that group of Torontonians knows that their property taxes will be rising to maintain the Gardiner, which they won't be happy about if they seldom use it.

 

[pman]

I honestly think Kathleen is going for 0% approval at this point. Everything she's been doing has been counter-intuitive and this is just another example. She rejects tolls since she faced stiff 905 opposition from MPs, but yet the city proposes its own Toronto-centric alcohol tax and that idea gets rejected as well? Who understands what she's doing anymore.

I agree she seems to be going for 0% of the non-civil servant vote. On the other hand she is clearly targeting 100% of the teacher vote. After all, their unions own the Ontario Liberal Party.

 

[interchange42]

Take the off-topic politics to the Politics section of the forum please.

42

 

[Palma]

Rejecting road tolls seems to thin out Wynne's support base. Perhaps some 905ers are relieved now, but they won't be thinking about how they enjoy the status quo at the ballot box. They'll be thinking about some concern they have about the economy or some politician's campaign message. At the same time, it's a memorable betrayal of Toronto progressives and Torontonians who simply want the city to be able to sort out its tax policy without external interference. Otherwise, that group of Torontonians knows that their property taxes will be rising to maintain the Gardiner, which they won't be happy about if they seldom use it.

Should this not be then Tory saying no to gardiner proposal and to take it down? So if. I am understanding, Toronto has power to tear down gardiner but not put tolls on it? council should revote on options then

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Toronto owns the Gardiner and is thus entirely responsible for it. However, since we like to pretend it's 1867 forever, Toronto does not have any powers of taxation beyond what the province gives them. They needed a rubber stamp from Wynne to collect money from people driving on it. Further discussion of whether Toronto should reverse its Gardiner decision (almost certainly) and whether it will (almost certainly not) is for that thread.

But t's why (to come back on thread) Richmond Hill couldn't possibly raise enough money to build its own subway, even if it remotely made sense to do so (which it does not).

The lower-tier municipalities are entirely reliant on the largesse of the upper levels of government for major capital projects. It makes it impossible to develop a local or regional plan. So you get, in this instance, York Region and Toronto coordinating on a BRT, the province saying funding is coming for a subway - so plan for that - and then they do all the work and get hung out to dry. No plan, no money, no means to raise the money even if they wanted to. Just a disappointing mess after years moving in the right direction.