Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

She was pandering to the 905 municipalities yesterday, spinning the toll cancellation as a boon to transit investment everywhere. She could easily have thrown a bone in that direction. She was up there, standing alongside the chair of York Region and the mayors of RH and Markham, among others. Plus she was pissing off John Tory, so why not announce she's forcing TTC to build a subway to her hometown in the process?
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I was surprised to see the extension appear in the list of things that she is taking credit for. It seemed like a really disingenuous lack of truthfulness, and a bit of a slap in the face to folks up that way, considering that there seems to be absolutely no forward movement. Has she overruled ML and the City with respect to DRL being a prerequisite?

- Paul
 
She might lose, and then Salsa would be right? What then?

Under what circumstances would he be right? I don't follow.
I don't think Wynne "might" lose at this point. She will lose and an even more anti-toll government will come in. And, yeah, I'm sure Patrick Brown will care a lot about the DRL and proper prioritization of transit projects and empowering Metrolinx and the City of Toronto. Ironically, he'd probably be more likely to build a subway serving the 905 and screwing Toronto, if typical PC practices hold.

I was surprised to see the extension appear in the list of things that she is taking credit for. It seemed like a really disingenuous lack of truthfulness, and a bit of a slap in the face to folks up that way, considering that there seems to be absolutely no forward movement. Has she overruled ML and the City with respect to DRL being a prerequisite?

In June she gave York Region $55M to move the engineering forward. In the context of McGuinty putting it on his priority list back in 2007, it's not much. But it's not "absolutely no forward movement."

(I'm also pretty sure Metrolinx has taken a far less stringent take on whether the DRL is a pre-requisite. That's TTC's/council's position. But based on my personal observations of Toronto City Council, they don't have a particularly firm or objective grasp of transportation priorities.)
 
I would still like to know how the liberals can force he ttc to expand north into richmondhill? Who cares if she provides funding. Toornto can say no. Toronto or should i say miller was insane to agree to extension into Vaughan. Who cares if they provided funding. The ttc will still be losossing money operating up there and again by going there they are not providing service to toornto neighbourhoods, Areas in toronto need subways . No reason to be expanding beyond. Again GO is for long distance travel. Major cities that have subways do not use for long distance travel- that's where trains come in and in Ontario would be GO or Via for other areas
 
Under what circumstances would he be right? I don't follow.
I don't think Wynne "might" lose at this point. She will lose and an even more anti-toll government will come in. And, yeah, I'm sure Patrick Brown will care a lot about the DRL and proper prioritization of transit projects and empowering Metrolinx and the City of Toronto. Ironically, he'd probably be more likely to build a subway serving the 905 and screwing Toronto, if typical PC practices hold.



In June she gave York Region $55M to move the engineering forward. In the context of McGuinty putting it on his priority list back in 2007, it's not much. But it's not "absolutely no forward movement."

(I'm also pretty sure Metrolinx has taken a far less stringent take on whether the DRL is a pre-requisite. That's TTC's/council's position. But based on my personal observations of Toronto City Council, they don't have a particularly firm or objective grasp of transportation priorities.)
No he would not. He would be right if the PC's also say Yonge cannot happen until the DRL. PC 's have favored suburban Toronto, so it's likely Sheppard will get done first and Scarborough, which is still Toronto, but neither the DRL or Yonge North would happen.
 
She was pandering to the 905 municipalities yesterday, spinning the toll cancellation as a boon to transit investment everywhere. She could easily have thrown a bone in that direction. She was up there, standing alongside the chair of York Region and the mayors of RH and Markham, among others. Plus she was pissing off John Tory, so why not announce she's forcing TTC to build a subway to her hometown in the process?

In her mind, you are supposed to be satisfied that she scuttled the road tolls. This was her gift to Richmond Hill. Which pathetically, a lot of residents there are happy with what she did.
 
No he would not. He would be right if the PC's also say Yonge cannot happen until the DRL. PC 's have favored suburban Toronto, so it's likely Sheppard will get done first and Scarborough, which is still Toronto, but neither the DRL or Yonge North would happen.

Hudak was a big proponent of the DRL, so I don't see any reason to believe Patrick Brown would suddenly oppose it on ideological grounds. The DRL Long, in particular, is a very popular project, and a stupid easy way to flip Toronto ridings blue, especially east of Yonge. Furthermore, not committing to the Relief Line, in some form, would evoke memories of the Harris-era PCs being strongly anti-transit, which I don't think would fly in 2018 -- transit and infrastructure is the #1 issue in the region. I'm more or less certain that both the Liberals and PCs will at least support Relief Line Short, and support from at least one part of Long is very likely.

I'm not expecting anything on the Sheppard Subway. It's the most politically contentions infrastructure item in the region. Plus both parties should be aware that any Sheppard extension would exacerbate Yonge crowding. If there are any Scarbrough-specific transit commitments, I'd expect the PCs to campaign to extend Line 2 north to Sheppard.
 
Hudak was a big proponent of the DRL, so I don't see any reason to believe Patrick Brown would suddenly oppose it on ideological grounds. The DRL Long, in particular, is a very popular project, and a stupid easy way to flip Toronto ridings blue, especially east of Yonge. Furthermore, not committing to the Relief Line, in some form, would evoke memories of the Harris-era PCs being strongly anti-transit, which I don't think would fly in 2018 -- transit and infrastructure is the #1 issue in the region. I'm more or less certain that both the Liberals and PCs will at least support Relief Line Short, and support from at least one part of Long is very likely.

I'm not expecting anything on the Sheppard Subway. It's the most politically contentions infrastructure item in the region. Plus both parties should be aware that any Sheppard extension would exacerbate Yonge crowding. If there are any Scarbrough-specific transit commitments, I'd expect the PCs to campaign to extend Line 2 north to Sheppard.
Fair enough. I wasn't sure if he would. If so, then I think DRL has every reason to go first. But we can't say Sheppard and Yonge North won't have enough riders and that it will overload Yonge, can we?
 
Fair enough. I wasn't sure if he would. If so, then I think DRL has every reason to go first. But we can't say Sheppard and Yonge North won't have enough riders and that it will overload Yonge, can we?

Well, Yonge is only a few thousand riders per hour below saturation. If we add that many riders to Sheppard, it still may not be a fully used subway, but added to the existing volume it will choke Yonge.

Bottom line - we need to get on with DRL Long. And I don't mind if we do extend Line 2 to Sheppard, and fill in Sheppard as a subway. And Richmond Hill. It would give a basic subway grid, with LRT filling in the rest.

That's a lot of money, we need to stop declaring victory when we do "little" things like road tolls or gas taxes that only contribute much smaller amounts to the public purse. Time to accelerate the thinking and get this all funded. But I'm not running for office, so it's easy for me to say.

- Paul
 
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Well, Yonge is only a few thousand riders per hour below saturation. If we add that many riders to Sheppard, it still may not be a fully used subway, but added to the existing volume it will choke Yonge.

Bottom line - we need to get on with DRL Long. And I don't mind if we do extend Line 2 to Sheppard, and fill in Sheppard as a subway. And Richmond Hill. It would give a basic subway grid, with LRT filling in the rest.

That's a lot of money, we need to stop declaring victory when we do "little" things like road tolls or gas taxes that only contribute much smaller amounts to the public purse. Time to accelerate the thinking and get this all funded. But I'm not running for office, so it's easy for me to say.

- Paul
Agreed 100 percent. I just wish they would get on with. The tech doesn't matter, the coverage does. And right now, little of Toronto is being covered in other then buses.
 
No he would not. He would be right if the PC's also say Yonge cannot happen until the DRL. PC 's have favored suburban Toronto, so it's likely Sheppard will get done first and Scarborough, which is still Toronto, but neither the DRL or Yonge North would happen.

Ultimately this is all academic. Either way, the priorities are likely to be HIS priorities rather than TORONTO's priorities. Scarborough is already a done deal (as much as anything is in Toronto) while Richmond Hill is a Liberal riding ripe for the taking. Thornhill is pretty safely PC these days and the MPP is "pro-subway" in the Rob Ford sense of the term. Making any assumptions about what Brown might do is ultimately pointless right now, but he's obviously not pro-toll/revenue tools. Whether he tries to make inroads in the outer-416 or make a real pitch to the 905 or how he can pay for any of this is TBD.

In her mind, you are supposed to be satisfied that she scuttled the road tolls. This was her gift to Richmond Hill. Which pathetically, a lot of residents there are happy with what she did.

Well, it didn't work with me, FWIW. I understand, at a basic level, why some Markham commuter who drives downtown instead of taking GO is suddenly furious he had to pay Toronto money in tolls. And I also understand that, as bold a move as it was, Tory did it knowing it would hit non-voters harder than it would hit actual 416 residents. So cynicism abounds. The local mayors and MPPs scuttled it and try as Wynne might to spin it as a victory, it'll be short-lived. The impacts will last much longer.
 
I understand, at a basic level, why some Markham commuter who drives downtown instead of taking GO is suddenly furious he had to pay Toronto money in tolls.

I want to address this because it's a common argument in favour of tolls, and the core reason that the Premier said no to implementing them.

Not everybody has good public transit as a feasible alternative for a variety of reasons, and the reason the tolls were struck down was primarily that it's unreasonable to force people to pay tolls when they have no good transit near them.

Perhaps this commuter in Markham lives 10-15 minutes' drive from the nearest GO station, with no usable local bus service connecting them to it. So, they have to pay for a car, insurance, etc. already just to get to+from the GO station. For one, maybe they don't have sufficient income to handle all of those expenses plus GO fares each month.

Additionally, GO trains in Markham operates pretty strictly southbound in the morning rush and northbound in the afternoon rush. Maybe this person needs to get downtown sooner or later than the trains, and head home sooner or later than the homebound ones?

And here in Aurora our station is way past capacity for parking, even with the huge garage, and even before the current partial lot closure for tunnel construction. With 5 southbound trains in the morning half an hour apart, the last two trains routinely don't have parking, and the third one is a little tricky if you get there late. From what I understand, this is a problem common to most GO stations, but I'm welcome to correction if Markham is somehow immune, however much I doubt that.

Then there's GO buses as an alternative, which offer a substantially slower trip than driving downtown at that point even if one's ultimate destination is the Union Bus Terminal in either case (which is unlikely), suffer from near-zero parking availability at stations by the time all trains have departed, and in addition to the slower trip have a constrained schedule vs. just getting in your car and going, and the one time I was visiting Markham and tried to get on a GO bus to Union, I arrived 20 minutes early at Unionville and the bus was full, I ended up waiting about 1 hour in total because the second bus was late. That simply isn't feasible if one has to get to work and has a family to get home to at the end of the day. Trains are great, the buses aren't for daily commuting if you already have a car and have to drive to the station anyways.

There's also YRT/Viva+TTC, but to get downtown from Markham, that's way, way worse than even the GO Bus. Those services are very slow, crowded, and delay-prone.

So, in the end, this is the main reason the Premier said she was nixing the tolls, and I agree with her. I wholeheartedly agree with road tolls in general, but here in the GTA for existing major highways, at the present time, it's absurd to start tolling them, except for adding new HOT lanes, though I believe those should remain HOV only since I think HOV lanes are a more sustainable long-term strategy in general and the HOV lanes were already congested before letting permit owners in too.

Once GO RER is operational with 15-minute bidirectional truly-all-day service, and the GO parking issue has somehow been figured out preferably by improving local connecting transit, and assuming that GO RER covers enough of each line rather than, for instance, terminating at Unionville, then I'd be interested in seeing a well-thought-out plan for road tolling, not a $2 flat fee, but an actual competent strategy including time-of-day pricing, discounts or free travel for carpool and electric vehicles, distance-based tolls, discounts or free travel for Toronto residents already paying property taxes, an analysis of ways in which 905 residents contribute directly and indirectly to Toronto's revenue and general economy and vitality, etc.
 
Ultimately this is all academic. Either way, the priorities are likely to be HIS priorities rather than TORONTO's priorities. Scarborough is already a done deal (as much as anything is in Toronto) while Richmond Hill is a Liberal riding ripe for the taking. Thornhill is pretty safely PC these days and the MPP is "pro-subway" in the Rob Ford sense of the term. Making any assumptions about what Brown might do is ultimately pointless right now, but he's obviously not pro-toll/revenue tools. Whether he tries to make inroads in the outer-416 or make a real pitch to the 905 or how he can pay for any of this is TBD.



Well, it didn't work with me, FWIW. I understand, at a basic level, why some Markham commuter who drives downtown instead of taking GO is suddenly furious he had to pay Toronto money in tolls. And I also understand that, as bold a move as it was, Tory did it knowing it would hit non-voters harder than it would hit actual 416 residents. So cynicism abounds. The local mayors and MPPs scuttled it and try as Wynne might to spin it as a victory, it'll be short-lived. The impacts will last much longer.
Fair enough. We'll see. At this point, I would be fine if they were all built.
 
To be clear, Megaton I don't agree with why commuters shouldn't pay tolls! I just understand with the selfish logic from drivers and the local politicians who'd rather have local residents' taxes feeding into their own coffers. It's one more reason we need some form of regional governance but....yeah.
 
I want to address this because it's a common argument in favour of tolls, and the core reason that the Premier said no to implementing them.

Not everybody has good public transit as a feasible alternative for a variety of reasons, and the reason the tolls were struck down was primarily that it's unreasonable to force people to pay tolls when they have no good transit near them.

Is it also unreasonable to ask non-residents to help pay for infrastructure that they use but for which they don't pay their fair share towards maintaining?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
Is it also unreasonable to ask non-residents to help pay for infrastructure that they use but for which they don't pay their fair share towards maintaining?

"Don't pay their fair share" isn't true at all. Toronto has very low property taxes on residents, which are supported by very high tax rates on businesses and employers, which are only possible because so many non-residents come into the city. If people from the 905 didn't come into Toronto using the (taxpayer-funded) freeways and TTC, residential tax bills would be several hundred dollars larger.
 

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