Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

TJ O'Pootertoot said:
Toronto owns the Gardiner and is thus entirely responsible for it. However, since we like to pretend it's 1867 forever, Toronto does not have any powers of taxation beyond what the province gives them. They needed a rubber stamp from Wynne to collect money from people driving on it. Further discussion of whether Toronto should reverse its Gardiner decision (almost certainly) and whether it will (almost certainly not) is for that thread.

But t's why (to come back on thread) Richmond Hill couldn't possibly raise enough money to build its own subway, even if it remotely made sense to do so (which it does not).

The lower-tier municipalities are entirely reliant on the largesse of the upper levels of government for major capital projects. It makes it impossible to develop a local or regional plan. So you get, in this instance, York Region and Toronto coordinating on a BRT, the province saying funding is coming for a subway - so plan for that - and then they do all the work and get hung out to dry. No plan, no money, no means to raise the money even if they wanted to. Just a disappointing mess after years moving in the right direction.
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There are more pressing matter than a Richmond Hill subway.
 
Cobra said:
As long as parts of the city aren't serve by rapid transit first, the subway shouldn't leave city borders.
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If the TTC should only expand to serve Toronto, then the city should be paying for that expansion on its own. Virtually everyone who uses the subway is contributing to Toronto's tax base in some form or another, either by paying property taxes on their home in the city or by supporting a business that pays the city's sky-high commercial property tax rates.

Now, if the province is expected to pay for rapid transit, then those projects should be based on actual need for them, not based on the lines that were drawn on a map by British aristocrats 200 years ago.
 
amnesiajune said:
Now, if the province is expected to pay for rapid transit, then those projects should be based on actual need for them, not based on the lines that were drawn on a map by British aristocrats 200 years ago.
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These lines were only drawn in the 1950's. Before that Toronto and York Region (plus others) all formed York County.
 
amnesiajune said:
If the TTC should only expand to serve Toronto, then the city should be paying for that expansion on its own. Virtually everyone who uses the subway is contributing to Toronto's tax base in some form or another, either by paying property taxes on their home in the city or by supporting a business that pays the city's sky-high commercial property tax rates.

Now, if the province is expected to pay for rapid transit, then those projects should be based on actual need for them, not based on the lines that were drawn on a map by British aristocrats 200 years ago.
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Is that so? Contrarily to Montreal Metro where it is provincially subsidized and the suburbs actually pay their fair share of the operating costs (all of the surrounding 450 area pay), Toronto gets nothing but the fares. TTC is solely subsidized by its citizens. I just don't understand how you justify telling those same citizens who have terrible service and no rapid transit that their taxes will go to provide premium services to a city outside Toronto's jurisdiction before their own area.

I said it before and I'll say it again, I believe it should be GO Transit because it was created for that purpose (Heavily financed through Toronto taxpayers, you're welcome). TTC mandate is within it's city limits FIRST AND FOREMOST!

If a subway is to go beyond city limits again, as a Toronto taxpayer I expect
  • That areas in need of Rapid transit be covered 1st
  • That York Region their fair share of the O&M costs
  • If GO RER can't happen, Relief Line makes more sense than Yonge
 
muller877 said:
These lines were only drawn in the 1950's. Before that Toronto and York Region (plus others) all formed York County.
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The division was based on the boundaries of Scarborough, North York and Etobicoke, which were all defined back in 1792. And funny enough, the division of York County into York Region and Metro Toronto came about because the individual municipalities of Toronto refused to work together on road & public transit projects even when given provincial funding, so the province formed Metro and gave it a bunch of the powers that formerly belonged to the individual cities & boroughs.
 
Cobra said:
TTC is solely subsidized by its citizens.
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That's not true, at all. Thanks to Toronto's convoluted and regressive tax system, most residents in Toronto are actually subsidized by businesses - where both residents and non-residents contribute to the sky-high property tax rates - and by people who live in rental apartments and pay triple the single-residential tax rate.

Is Montreal the best example you can come up with? Because their subway system serves five different municipalities. They don't take an "us-first" mentality towards transit. And on top of that, the gas tax for the Montreal area doesn't fund the Montreal Metro - it's funded solely by the Montreal Administrative Region, which doesn't include Longueuil or Laval. The gas tax only provides funding for the AMT system.
 
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amnesiajune said:
That's not true, at all. Thanks to Toronto's convoluted and regressive tax system, most residents in Toronto are actually subsidized by businesses - where both residents and non-residents contribute to the sky-high property tax rates - and by people who live in rental apartments and pay triple the single-residential tax rate.
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So, City of Toronto & fares are the main sources of revenue for the TTC.

amnesiajune said:
Because their subway system serves five different municipalities.
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Which all pay the O&M costs annually, which York Region isn't doing

amnesiajune said:
They don't take an "us-first" mentality towards transit.And on top of that, the gas tax for the Montreal area doesn't fund the Montreal Metro - it's funded solely by the Montreal Administrative Region, which doesn't include Longueuil or Laval. The gas tax only provides funding for the AMT system.
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http://www.stm.info/fr/presse/commu...uts------du-transport-en-commun-metropolitain

Translation of the main points:
  • The Metro is unanimously considered to be a metropolitan equipment, and the City of Montreal and the STM propose a formula that imputes 67% of the deficit of the metro (O&M) to the municipalities of the agglomeration of Montréal (Montreal Island) and 33% to the other municipalities members of The CMM. (ALL 83 surrounding suburbs)"
  • Concerning the extension of the métro section to Laval, Mr. Trudel concluded by stating: "... because I want things to be very clear for everyone: the Montréal metro, because it is Montréal and not Laval, will not travel to Laval until the issue of funding for this section has been resolved to the satisfaction of the City and the STM. "
So I beg to differ. They got the "Sorbora" treatment from Quebec City for the Laval subway extension they didn't want. They wanted the blue line to Anjou which is like our Scarborough, but the Laval vote was too hard to resist. As you can see, Montreal considers the Metro as "Montreal Metro". There was a funding dispute over the Laval section and Montreal concluded that although the province built it, Montreal and the STM had no obligation to let the trains enter Laval unless they get a compensation. Quebec resolved the issue very fast and Montreal got their money.

But they got the suburbs to pay their share of the O&M by having it recognize as a "metropolitan equipment", which they unanimously agreed to. With that kind of attitude, there's a better cooperation atmosphere in the region regarding public transit as they are working together on the REM project. We can't say that York Region councillors crying in all the news papers DEMANDING for the subway and "F" the reports on the Yonge line being overcrowded is on the same level maturity-wise as the Montreal suburbs. At least they understand that keeping Montreal moving with a fast, well funded and reliable subway is good for Montreal and if Montreal thrive, they all thrive!

Do you know what's the latest joke in Montreal? The only way to have a seat on the Orange line or to get to work on time, is to move to Laval!!! Sorry sir, but the "selfish" attitude you're accusing Toronto of having should be directed at York Region who's desperate to become a major city by creating a new downtown out of thin air and density on the back of Toronto and its citizens knowing full well that the current network can't handle it. But hey, at least the rich Laval commuters can sit on the trains while less fortunate riders in Montreal-Nord and Rivieres-des-Prairies can keep commuting to the orange line on buses like cattle so they see Laval residents getting on the metro while they already have commuter trains...interesting. I wonder why Paris doesn't do the same...they must be morons with their RER concept

So it shouldn't be about the 905 telling Toronto that they have to extend the subway to them because they pay fares or some of them pay business taxes in Toronto or through a portion of the gas tax. It's about recognizing that if Toronto doesn't fix its public transit infrastructure with mass expansion, the city will choke under its own congestion. All this time and productivity loss costs Toronto billions and makes it less attractive for all kind of investment that will go elsewhere. Sorry to break it to you, but they'll go to Montreal, Vancouver or major US cities, not Richmond Hill or Markham. Toronto suffers...guess what, so will the whole 905 and the rest of Ontario. So it's in the 905 interest that Toronto stays as attractive, more attractive as ever so more investments comes which beneficiates the 905 cities as well.

So unless those York Region politicians "grows the F up", I applaud the City of Toronto on their stance on the York Region subway. They should go further and get exactly what Montreal got as well, and then, and only then, will Torontonians support projects like Richmond Hill.

Thank you

Sincerely,

an humble Toronto Taxpayer
 
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Cobra said:
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So, City of Toronto & fares are the main sources of revenue for the TTC....
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I wonder how much revenue the TTC makes off of people from outside of Toronto using it. Like what proportion that comes up to as part of their total service revenues.
 
BMO said:
I wonder how much revenue the TTC makes off of people from outside of Toronto using it. Like what proportion that comes up to as part of their total service revenues.
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Can't be that much if tolling the DVP and Gardiner gets them that upset. :)
I work at Sheppard-Yonge and most people finds GO Transit way more useful and faster than TTC.
 
Cobra said:
The Metro is unanimously considered to be a metropolitan equipment, and the City of Montreal and the STM propose a formula that imputes 67% of the deficit of the metro (O&M) to the municipalities of the agglomeration of Montréal (Montreal Island) and 33% to the other municipalities members of The CMM. (ALL 83 surrounding suburbs)"
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That's not a statement of fact. That's Montreal asking for money (which they didn't get)

Cobra said:
Concerning the extension of the métro section to Laval, Mr. Trudel concluded by stating: "... because I want things to be very clear for everyone: the Montréal metro, because it is Montréal and not Laval, will not travel to Laval until the issue of funding for this section has been resolved to the satisfaction of the City and the STM. "
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And yet here we are, ten years after they said that, and Montreal's Metro does travel into Laval and Longueuil (the latter station opened half a century ago) despite that system getting no funding from either of those cities. They don't charge people extra to travel to those cities either.

Anyways, I'll just restate this in response to your "humble Toronto Taxpayer" comment: Unless you live in a private rental building with more than five units, you're actually enjoying a subsidy provided by people who do live in those buildings (and are disproportionately low-income), and also provided by employees and shoppers of Toronto's businesses (including many from the 905), which pay a higher tax rate than they would anywhere else in the GTA.

Sincerely, a Toronto Taxpayer who's aware of how unfair & regressive our city's revenue system is.
 
amnesiajune said:
And yet here we are, ten years after they said that, and Montreal's Metro does travel into Laval and Longueuil (the latter station opened half a century ago)
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Longueuil was part of the STM when the metro was built in the 1960s, and still was in the 1980s, when I lived there.

amnesiajune said:
They don't charge people extra to travel to those cities either.
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On the Metro? You pay extra to go leave Longueuil or Laval. It's only the same fare to travel to those locations.
 
amnesiajune said:
Last time I was there (a year ago) it was included in the day pass and the $6.00 round trip fare.
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Very confusing. It's not valid with the usual $2.70 per ride (10 trip price); you need the $4.50 TRAM ticket . And it's not valid with the $83 pass, you need the $135 TRAM 3 pass. Though the (AMT) website is not very clear.
 
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