Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
You are absolutely correct, and in fairness the Steeles routes are very very busy too.
Steeles East - 28,300
Steeles West - 26,700
Steeles BRT makes a lot of sense, I am glad to see it emerge in City Planning's plans.
Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx
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You are absolutely correct, and in fairness the Steeles routes are very very busy too.
Steeles East - 28,300
Steeles West - 26,700
Steeles BRT makes a lot of sense, I am glad to see it emerge in City Planning's plans.
Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
minilude
Active Member
To my surprise this article is still talking about a "U" shape relief line (which to most of us agree that only a J shape would happen in the next 15 years, the question is small J or medium J or big J) and a LRT for the corridor, which has been discussed to death here. It's right for the York politicians to pursue the extension and it's also right for John Tory to affirm the stance that relief is needed first. We will see later what the federal budget will say.
By the way, John Tory changes his wording later last Tuesday according to am680
http://www.680news.com/2016/03/03/york-region-looking-extend-yonge-subway-richmond-hill/
Tory says York Region is a valued partner and the dialogue is on-going and active, but adds, they have been clear that an extension of the Yonge Subway line can’t happen, unless the overcrowding on those trains is addressed first.
That will likely happen through a combination of smart track and a relief line.
The statement goes on to say, the City and York Region continue to work together on other projects.
By the way, John Tory changes his wording later last Tuesday according to am680
http://www.680news.com/2016/03/03/york-region-looking-extend-yonge-subway-richmond-hill/
Tory says York Region is a valued partner and the dialogue is on-going and active, but adds, they have been clear that an extension of the Yonge Subway line can’t happen, unless the overcrowding on those trains is addressed first.
That will likely happen through a combination of smart track and a relief line.
The statement goes on to say, the City and York Region continue to work together on other projects.
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
You give this way too much weight. First, because as you're the first to tell anyone, plans change all the time. Secondly, because putting in their TMP that they want a subway up to wherever has no actual bearing on reality. It's not like they pitched a subway to Major Mac to Trudeau, did they? It's a 25-year plan, nothing more. I'm sure the one from 25 years ago doesn't look much like what's there now. I can't even imagine how off-base the circa-1990 YR TMP must be.
In the meantime, back in reality, they're actually building the BRT north of Highway 7. That will provide a perfect barometer, since they won't even dream of asking for $ for rail to replace ituntil those buses are at capacity. At least with Highway 7 we can see the constant stream of buses today. That BRT will take a lot longer to reach capacity so, although you keep returning to it, the present-day council and staff definitely understand the difference between north and south of 7. The fact that they are ALSO considering how far urbanization might proceed in the decades to come is to their credit, not detriment. If Toronto had the same attitude, they would have had the DRL in their long-term plans at least post-amalgamation. Dare to dream.
Didn't we already bash this around? Maybe that was just on Twitter. It's pretty poorly argued though, hey, obviously that's going to be my opinion
And the language is so over the top.
First they say, "This proposed new seven-kilometre subway expansion would channel a torrent of additional travelers into an already-deluged system...
But it would be exceedingly ill-advised to respond by having an influx of York riders inundate the system...And building a major, multi-billion-dollar subway extension on Yonge — in the hope there will be room for a flood of York riders — is a risky gamble." Flood!
The medlodramatic ending is pretty great, I grant you. Reminded me of the end of The Avengers.
No one's worried about Scarborough flooding the system with a cockroach-like infestation of suburbanites, but I guess that's because everyone agrees they deserve the subway.
It's nice they throw a bone to the "only 15% of YR residents" use transit, including people in Georgina, presumably. What are the numbers in Thornhill? Actually, seriously, I'd be curious to know how many "York riders" board at Finch now. TTC must have at least a sense of it.
It also falsely implies YR could get all the money from Trudeau and just go extend Toronto's subway on its own via the Spatafora quote. It's basically fearmongering. Everyone here, including the people I disagree with, has a far better grasp on the issues than these boobs.
BMO
Senior Member
I think this is because RHC as is, isn't a very convenient location. In terms of planning, it's got two grade separated Highways going through it, a heavy rail track, a hydro-corridor and a bunch of big box retail. In terms of planning it's probably one of the worst areas you could stick a condo. The only thing that will change that is if RHC becomes a mobility hub, then the advantages of being able to use GO transitway, GO rail, subway, VIVA BRT would be a really good incentive to unlock the value of this land (potentially even lead to burying the hydro corridor through here!). But until then you're not going to see growth hear, it's just not conducive to it without the transit IMO.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
The Scarbough Subway isn't a new service. Rather, it's replacing an existing service. Not replacing the RT isn't an option that's on the table, so this is a moot point.
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
I think this is it, precisely. Development is occurring OUTSIDE RHC, precisely because of the constraints that are there now. Metrus owns just about everything on the RH side of the centre and they're not breaking leases with Home Depot and Cineplex until there's a subway ready to open. So grab the cheaper land on the periphery. (This is also happening, to a lesser extent, in Vaughan where towers are going up over near Weston).
The Markham half is totally isolated without transit though the GO is there now at least. But the way they designed the phasing there's no reason to start pulling the trigger too early.
Semantics. The Yonge extension would be replacing bus service. It's a question of degree, not kind.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Exactly. The Scarborough RT replacement plans will replace a rapid transit service with a new rapid transit line. It's merely a replacement, of an existing rapid transit service for the area (Scarborough Subway has lower coverage, higher capacity, slightly faster downtown travel times, overall providing similar service).
The YNSE is an upgrade of a much greater degree, bringing RT to an area that currently has no RT. I hope I don't have to explain to you why that's an upgrade of a much larger degree.
BMO
Senior Member
I get the sense that a bunch of people on here seem to think that stopping the extension will magically get rid of demand and alleviate the Yonge line. The fact is that it isn't going to make the demand disappear and it's not going to shift ridership away from the line. It's always going to be an issue.
Fight for a DRL all you want but the fact still remains that this demand is and will continue to be on this stretch of Yonge before and after a DRL, so to act like this extension is pie-in-the-sky thinking is completely ludicrous.
Maybe instead of an Us or Them attitude it may be an opportunity to get a DRL and a Yonge extension funded instead of claiming that the 905 is ruining your city.
Fight for a DRL all you want but the fact still remains that this demand is and will continue to be on this stretch of Yonge before and after a DRL, so to act like this extension is pie-in-the-sky thinking is completely ludicrous.
Maybe instead of an Us or Them attitude it may be an opportunity to get a DRL and a Yonge extension funded instead of claiming that the 905 is ruining your city.
nfitz
Superstar
It's an option that can go back on the table. Recall that option was only $180 million when TTC approved it back in 2006(?).
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
People keep talking as if we can travel back in time. As if there's actually any debate about whether it's needed, how far it will or what mode it should be. All that work is done. there's only one question - when. (OK, two - and how to to pay for it!)
For all this talk, and hysterical language in the Star about how this isn't TORONTO's problem and why are we burdening TORONTO and blah blah, here's just another reminder, from the latest Toronto planning reports. Pretty yellow line, a SUBWAY, and within 15 years. Obviously Toronto and York Region are going to prioritize things differently, but why not discuss the actual project on its actual merits already?
For all this talk, and hysterical language in the Star about how this isn't TORONTO's problem and why are we burdening TORONTO and blah blah, here's just another reminder, from the latest Toronto planning reports. Pretty yellow line, a SUBWAY, and within 15 years. Obviously Toronto and York Region are going to prioritize things differently, but why not discuss the actual project on its actual merits already?
Attachments
BMO
Senior Member
So...if the YNSE benefits case is thrown out and a new study supports the YNSE taking those two things into account will you stop yelling bloody murder about the YNSE benefits case?
I don't think you will
Cobra
Senior Member
So...if the YNSE benefits case is thrown out and a new study supports the YNSE taking those two things into account will you stop yelling bloody murder about the YNSE benefits case?
I don't think you will
If a new YNSE benefits case is done taking LRT and GO RER into account, you guys will get the LRT. Subway will make absolutely no sense
Cobra
Senior Member
Why do I have the feeling you're just having fun over this? What part of OVERCAPACITY you don't understand?
I think the Star was spot on
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BMO
Senior Member
I don't get how an extension could over-crowd the subway and yet not justify a subway because it won't have demand for one. Please expand...
I really don't get this argument, everyone is screaming about it overcrowding the Yonge Line and that's why it can't be a subway and then everyone is screaming it should be an LRT because it doesn't justify a subway based on ridership. So which is it? Is it going to attract too many riders or too few?