Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[Midtown Urbanist]

I really do not understand why everyone here is arguing about the viability of York Region's master plan, or whether the Yonge North extension has the ridership potential to warrant subway vs. LRT vs. Metro technologies. It is totally besides the point!

There. Is. No. Capacity. On. The. Yonge. Line.

Whether York Region likes it or not, the Unilever site and the accompanying Portlands area is going to proceed ahead with development. Unilever is planning for over 10,000,000 square feet of office space. For reference, Canary Wharf in London is 14 million square feet. The accompanying areas in the Portlands is slated for mixed use development, and the downtown core will not stopping growing in office space either. If York Region really believes that they will be able to compete with downtown Toronto's shoulder area for office space, then best of luck to them.

But again, it is totally besides the point. Whether York Region's master plan pans out or not, there already is a substantial number of riders coming into Finch Station from York Region. The debate between LRT vs Subway vs Metro misses the point because regardless of which technology (which should definitely be subway btw) because regardless of which technology is chosen, we would still be dumping thousands of peak point riders onto the over-capacity Yonge subway line!

The projections have been very very clear. Even with the Spadina Extension, with ATC, with 5 minute headway SmartTrack, with the Relief Line running to Danforth, the Yonge Line will still be at or over capacity in 2041. There is no room for additional riders from York Region on the Yonge Line.

What is worse, is that we are banking so heavily on ATC, when it's capacity-increasing ability is highly variable to service delays and the human factor. If the doors cannot close at Bloor-Yonge because the station is overcrowded, then the entire subway line is delayed. If a passenger-service alarm is pulled, which will happen more regularly when you are dealing with an overcrowded subway, the entire subway line is delayed. That 36,000 capacity cited with ATC will become not much better than today's 28,000 when we consider these very real everyday factors.

Proceeding ahead with the Yonge North extension now is effectively dooming the region to ridiculously congested conditions. There would be no standing room at Sheppard let alone at Eglinton! Eglinton Station will look worse than Bloor-Yonge does today, and Bloor-Yonge I don't even want to think about. We would be jeopardizing the growth and vitality of the entire GTHA just to placate a few York Region riders who today altogether don't even number greater than the 44 Dufferin Bus.

We cannot continue with the Yonge North extension until after the Relief Line is built to Sheppard-Don Mills. As shown by the Metrolinx study, it is the ONLY way to adequately provide relief to the Yonge Subway. With 11,600 riders taken off of the Yonge Subway, we can (and should) proceed with the Yonge North extension.

 

[drum118]

You're not getting the concept:



It's very feasible to have the subway serve both Cooksville and Square One. So Cooksville would have stops at Cliff Rd and at Hillcrest (Cooksville GO). Dundas-Hurontario is skipped, yes, but there would be a Hurontario LRT to pick up the slack.

Oh!!, I got the concept years ago but you are chasing a white rabbit, let alone an elephant without major development on Dundas before doing it. An subway and LRT on Hurontario

In fact if the line stay 100% on Dundas, you would need 2 stations between Cloverdale and Dixie that would support more riders than Sherway "IF" the blight is 100% rebuilt.

By the way, what is the walking distance between these stations?????

Yes the Yonge Line has no capacity and it will have some if the DRL is built to Steeles for a Decade or 2 at best depending when it happens. Depending when the DRL reach Sheppard (prefer Steeles) it will be back to today problem or has increase to the point that will require a 2nd subway on Yonge. It will be more an express line and travel down Bay St south of St Clair since none of the existing Yonge stations will be able to handle both lines.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Unless the Relief Line goes to Steeles, not going to help the Young Line. Going to Danforth does nothing for the Young Line. Going to Eglinton will help some, but not like going to Sheppard.

Given all the development taking place on Young St today as well on the books, the Young Line will be over capacity for the rest of everyone life. If one looks at Yonge Street from Steeles to Queens Quay closely, they will see density within one block of Young St requiring a 2nd subway line by 2050 or sooner.

Yes the Yonge Line has no capacity and it will have some if the DRL is built to Steeles for a Decade or 2 at best depending when it happens. Depending when the DRL reach Sheppard (prefer Steeles) it will be back to today problem or has increase to the point that will require a 2nd subway on Yonge. It will be more an express line and travel down Bay St south of St Clair since none of the existing Yonge stations will be able to handle both lines.

In the transit fantasy map thread, I offered an alternative.

Take advantage of the Finch Hydro Corridor and the RH-GO rail corridor and bring the Relief Line to a terminus with the Yonge North extension at Richmond Hill Centre station.

York Region riders would have time savings from taking the Relief Line downtown, as opposed to the Yonge subway. Like this, we maximize relief to the Yonge Line.

 

[drum118]

In the transit fantasy map thread, I offered an alternative.

Take advantage of the Finch Hydro Corridor and the RH-GO rail corridor and bring the Relief Line to a terminus with the Yonge North extension at Richmond Hill Centre station.

York Region riders would have time savings from taking the Relief Line downtown, as opposed to the Yonge subway. Like this, we maximize relief to the Yonge Line.

In Nov 2006 for the Transit Summit on Metrolinx that I was co-chair of and not seeing or reading any existing transit plan before then, I came up with the U that was in line to the DRL U. It ran on Queen and then north on Jane to hwy 7 in the west with the line going north on Victoria Park to hwy 7 in the east. It would be built in phases and could extend north of hwy 7 in the future.

Don Mills is the better route today.

Regardless what is built, not going to help the Yonge line at all now or down the road. Time to build something.

 

[1overcosc]

I've heard that when ATO happens, we can't actually bring train frequencies down to 90 seconds because of constraints of turning trains around at Finch, so the best we can do is something like 105 seconds.

What if we built the Yonge extension, and changed the way trains turn around at the new Richmond Hill Centre station to enable 90 second service, would that 15 second drop in headways be enough to offset the additional demand created by the Yonge North extension?

(If this is completely stupid sounding, forgive me, I'm not as familiar on all of this as a lot of you guys are).

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

I've heard that when ATO happens, we can't actually bring train frequencies down to 90 seconds because of constraints of turning trains around at Finch, so the best we can do is something like 105 seconds.

What if we built the Yonge extension, and changed the way trains turn around at the new Richmond Hill Centre station to enable 90 second service, would that 15 second drop in headways be enough to offset the additional demand created by the Yonge North extension?

(If this is completely stupid sounding, forgive me, I'm not as familiar on all of this as a lot of you guys are).

No, you are absolutely right I believe. It is one of the biggest benefits of the Yonge North extension.

It just won't be enough. The 38,000 Yonge line capacity number is citing 90 seconds frequencies already.

 

[Amare]

The projections have been very very clear. Even with the Spadina Extension, with ATC, with 5 minute headway SmartTrack, with the Relief Line running to Danforth, the Yonge Line will still be at or over capacity in 2041. There is no room for additional riders from York Region on the Yonge Line.
View attachment 69177

That's the message I was trying to hammer away at, but there are some people who just cant understand this fact even after reading the Metrolinx report.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

There's been a lot of development on Yonge north of Bantry recently. Grand Genesis, Grand Palace, Beverly Hills, Xpression condos, etc. are all either recently completed or currently under construction. In the area circled on your map, Miracle at Yonge was completed in 2013, SkyCity Phase I last year, and construction of SkyCity Phase II starts this month. There are apparently several other buildings slated to go up next to SkyCity, but I'm not sure when.

The amount of development going on there, between 16 and Major Mac is pretty amazing
The irony is that part of the reason it's happening THERE and not RHC is because of the capacity constraints at RHC; no significant development happening there until the transit mess is settled so it's kind of leapfrogging.

I really do not understand why everyone here is arguing about the viability of York Region's master plan, or whether the Yonge North extension has the ridership potential to warrant subway vs. LRT vs. Metro technologies. It is totally besides the point!

There. Is. No. Capacity. On. The. Yonge. Line.

Stuff just got real! Big fonts! That's the sort of font that says, "no caveats! no conditions!" That font - that's UNEQUIVOCAL!

Then explain to us plebes how they're going to handle all the new riders coming on from the Crosstown and Scarborough subway and even Finch LRT. Magic?

The projections have been very very clear. Even with the Spadina Extension, with ATC, with 5 minute headway SmartTrack, with the Relief Line running to Danforth, the Yonge Line will still be at or over capacity in 2041. There is no room for additional riders from York Region on the Yonge Line.

Oh, you've answered the question! Not so UNEQUIVOCAL after all!

It's not there's NO. CAPACITY. [AT ALL] ON. THE YONGE LINE. It's that there's No. Capacity. For. Foreigners. I guess this is what we call Transit Planning, Donald Trump style.

So, if York Region riders, who don't have a subway nearby, drive or bus to Finch Station, you gonna check their passports? How are you going to stop them from getting on, exactly? Do you think they're not on the subway now just because it doesn't come to close their houses? They're just clogging up roads getting to it, I hate to tell you.

Whether York Region likes it or not, the Unilever site and the accompanying Portlands area is going to proceed ahead with development. Unilever is planning for over 10,000,000 square feet of office space.

I doubt York Region gives a crap about Unilever. They may be wondering why Toronto is spending $1.3B to keep the Gardiner up beside it instead of spending half as much and using that "Extra" money to build the DRL that, if I hear everyone here correctly is just SUPER SUPER SUPER important to Toronto.

But to the extent it does matter, York Region's growth centres will also develop, whether Toronto likes it or not. If you actually care about the "growth and vitality of the entire GTHA," you better hope they do, and not just in York Region.

Proceeding ahead with the Yonge North extension now is effectively dooming the region to ridiculously congested conditions. There would be no standing room at Sheppard let alone at Eglinton! Eglinton Station will look worse than Bloor-Yonge does today, and Bloor-Yonge I don't even want to think about.

Such small-picture thinking.
And where will the growing population of the GTA go in the meantime? They're all moving into Unilever and Liberty Village, I guess? We'll just pretend that 905 growth doesn't dwarf 416 growth because of the condo boom?

When all those new residents buy 2 cars and try to drive down to their jobs from Pine Valley Road and Brampton and Seaton, to the haven that is Unilever, your not being able to get a seat at Eglinton will look like pretty small change by comparison, economic developmentwise.

We would be jeopardizing the growth and vitality of the entire GTHA just to placate a few York Region riders who today altogether don't even number greater than the 44 Dufferin Bus.

Naive. Small-minded. Incorrect.
If you think the economic health of the GTHA is dependent on the increasing concentration of jobsin the core and purposeful under-investment in suburban transit (leading, inevitably, to more single-use, auto-oriented residential suburbs in further-flung areas), I humbly suggest you're off.

That's my opinion, anyway.

 

[rbt]

I doubt York Region gives a crap about Unilever. They may be wondering why Toronto is spending $1.3B to keep the Gardiner up beside it instead of spending half as much and using that "Extra" money to build the DRL that, if I hear everyone here correctly is just SUPER SUPER SUPER important to Toronto.

It's my understanding that York Region is NOT going to contribute to the large (tens of millions per year) operations or capital subsidies for the Spadina extension. I do realize that businesses pay property tax, so I'll assume that the downtown banks are happy to cover those costs to move their Vaughan employees downtown, but I'm not thrilled about York Region demanding an additional transfer of expenses from their own account to Toronto's. I'd have a different opinion if they say kicked in $50M/year into the TTC SOGR budget (roughly 1% of replacement cost in completion year).

I'll assume with Yonge's ridership operations would be break-even (unlike Spadina).

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Stuff just got real! Big fonts! That's the sort of font that says, "no caveats! no conditions!" That font - that's UNEQUIVOCAL!

Hey, I learn from the best!

Then explain to us plebes how they're going to handle all the new riders coming on from the Crosstown and Scarborough subway and even Finch LRT. Magic?

The Spadina extension is actually taking 1,200 peak riders off of the Yonge Line, largely because of how it will intercept the Finch West bust. The Finch LRT is going to feed into it. This is why the Relief Line to Sheppard is so important. Just like the Spadina extension intercepts the Finch West bus, the Relief Line would intercept Eglinton, Lawrence, York Mills and Sheppard buses.

The Crosstown is needed because Eglinton is hopelessly congested with buses and is in desperate need of a rapid transit upgrade. I checked and the VIVA Blue bus to Finch station travelling along Yonge south of Steeles has a weekday ridership of 16,600. That is cute.

Here is the reality on Eglinton:
Eglinton West - 38,100
Eglinton East - 28,100
Lawrence East - 33,700
Flemingdon Park - 15,100

All these routes (+5 more minor routes) terminate at Eglinton Station at present.

As for the Crosstown, it will allow for some load-sharing as riders coming in from the east will be allowed to transfer at Eglinton West on the Spadina line and head downtown. It will also reduce the load from the Bloor-Danforth subway (especially if Crosstown East and Crosstown West are approved) which will help somewhat with the crush point at Bloor-Yonge station, albeit by transferring that load to a new crush point at Eglinton Station.

Finally, the Crosstown largely consists of existing riders. The Yonge North extension brings in new riders.

As for the Scarborough Subway, I agree it is stupid. However, Scarborough is not nearly as bad as the Yonge North extension is for dumping ridership onto the over-capacity Yonge subway line. Look here:

I lament the fact that Scarborough subway money can't go towards building the Relief Line, but the unfortunate scenario is that the SRT is at the end of its lifecycle and it needs to be replaced. You keep saying that Toronto wants a Scarborough subway, but it is Provincial and Federal MPs and MPPs that are forcing it on us. The Scarborough Subway is largely the Infrastructure Minister Brad Duguid's pet project. John Tory can't drop the subway if he wants provincial funding for SmartTrack or the Relief Line or any other Toronto transit project.

Oh, you've answered the question! Not so UNEQUIVOCAL after all!

It's not there's NO. CAPACITY. [AT ALL] ON. THE YONGE LINE. It's that there's No. Capacity. For. Foreigners. I guess this is what we call Transit Planning, Donald Trump style.

So, if York Region riders, who don't have a subway nearby, drive or bus to Finch Station, you gonna check their passports? How are you going to stop them from getting on, exactly? Do you think they're not on the subway now just because it doesn't come to close their houses? They're just clogging up roads getting to it, I hate to tell you.

Yes they are, and I see no reason to give them further incentive to do so by building a subway right to their home. Not when Torontonians cannot board the TTC operated subway at Sheppard, Eglinton, Bloor.

Such small-picture thinking.
And where will the growing population of the GTA go in the meantime? They're all moving into Unilever and Liberty Village, I guess? We'll just pretend that 905 growth doesn't dwarf 416 growth because of the condo boom?

When all those new residents buy 2 cars and try to drive down to their jobs from Pine Valley Road and Brampton and Seaton, to the haven that is Unilever, your not being able to get a seat at Eglinton will look like pretty small change by comparison, economic developmentwise.

I welcome York Region residents who desire driving 2h to downtown and not being able to find a parking spot.

What makes more sense regionally, is for 905ers to drive to a GO-RER station and take an easy rapid transit ride downtown. For Richmond Hill and Thornhill residents, you may be able to replace that GO-RER ride with a Yonge North subway ride in the future. The Yonge North subway makes a lot of sense and it should be built. Just not before the Relief Line to Sheppard is built - because there won't be any room on the Yonge subway otherwise.

I don't understand why you want to play this us vs. them thing so much. If the Yonge subway is congested and over-capacity, this is a problem for York Region commuters too, even if (or rather, especially if) the subway is built to Richmond Hill.

Naive. Small-minded. Incorrect.
If you think the economic health of the GTHA is dependent on the increasing concentration of jobsin the core and purposeful under-investment in suburban transit (leading, inevitably, to more single-use, auto-oriented residential suburbs in further-flung areas), I humbly suggest you're off.

That's my opinion, anyway.

No, I do not believe that under-investment in the suburbs is a good thing for the region. Quite the opposite.

But here is the thing, our region's region's core and central spine is threatened with over-capacity issues and paralyzing congestion. We are talking about the economic center of not just the GTHA but of all Canada. It is a problem if people on Sheppard, Eglinton and Bloor cannot get onto the subway. It leads to staggering economic losses due to loss of productivity. It stunts growth and investment for our entire region.

Our region's vitality is predicated on the Yonge subway's upper capacity. This includes York Region.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

It's my understanding that York Region is NOT going to contribute to the large (tens of millions per year) operations or capital subsidies for the Spadina extension.

I've never heard York Region say they wouldn't. It is, however, as we all know, Toronto's subway.
That said, I see no reason to expect fare integration - which will DEFINITELY be in place before the extension would open - would not include a fair breakdown of operating subsidies, including for lines that cross borders. I'd certainly hope/expect it to

Hey, I learn from the best!As for the Crosstown, it will allow for some load-sharing as riders coming in from the east will be allowed to transfer at Eglinton West on the Spadina line and head downtown. It will also reduce the load from the Bloor-Danforth subway (especially if Crosstown East and Crosstown West are approved) which will help somewhat with the crush point at Bloor-Yonge station, albeit by transferring that load to a new crush point at Eglinton Station.

Finally, the Crosstown largely consists of existing riders. The Yonge North extension brings in new riders.

As for the Scarborough Subway, I agree it is stupid. However, Scarborough is not nearly as bad as the Yonge North extension is for dumping ridership onto the over-capacity Yonge subway line.

that's a fair and thoughtful answer. Just so long as we all acknowledge the absurd paradox that, money aside, the main reason we think it's a bad idea to build the Yonge subway is because so many new people will ride it. It's not that I don't understand WHY that's the case, but it doesn't make it any less absurd; especially in a fast-growing region governed by anti-sprawl legislation.

I'd have ditched Scarborough (and torn down the Gardiner) and built the DRL and Yonge, but that's not how things work in these parts. But a chain of dumb/short-sighted decisions has repercussions and not being able to extend the city's main subway to an intensification-ready corridor with strong existing ridership is one that should concern more people, IMHO.

It's somewhat galling that the DRL only came to prominence via the Yonge extension. it shows the extent to which TTC/council let things fester, get distracted by politics etc. In the meantime, it's been SEVEN YEARS since then and Toronto has only just started on the DRL planning. It's a bit hard to cut them too much slack when they talk about what a huge priority it is. A TPAP takes six months.

(And yes, something had to replace the SRT but if no one had messed with Transit City, Toronto would be a lot better off in most respects today.)

I welcome York Region residents who desire driving 2h to downtown and not being able to find a parking spot.
What makes more sense regionally, is for 905ers to drive to a GO-RER station and take an easy rapid transit ride downtown. For Richmond Hill and Thornhill residents, you may be able to replace that GO-RER ride with a Yonge North subway ride in the future. The Yonge North subway makes a lot of sense and it should be built. Just not before the Relief Line to Sheppard is built - because there won't be any room on the Yonge subway otherwise.

Begs the question - who's going to be occupying all those Unilever offices.

This only "makes more sense regionally" if you assume everyone in the 905 will always want to go to Union Station. Not only won't they in the future, they already don't. What you DO want to do is (to the extent you can) foster a multi-nodal region where people can travel to different destinations (including FROM Toronto TO Richmond Hill or Mississauga or wherever) because the capacity of the Yonge line and even Union Station is finite. The radial system is obsolete and scotch-taping new bits and pieces will only get you so far. That's really the entire logic of the entire Provincial planning system (and it's hardly an Ontario-only idea).

I'm not playing us vs. them at all. I think we're all one big region and Toronto isn't really coming around to that way of thinking. I think Toronto's neglect of their own needs (some of which is not entirely their fault) is putting the larger region at risk, at least in the long term. It's the attitude that, "TTC is too crowded for YR residents; they should take GO," that's Us vs. Them. People will take the transit service that meets their needs, not the one foisted upon them by someone who thinks they know. It's not 1967 anymore and GO service to Union Station is not the be-all-and-end-all of transportation planning. Clearly you want the people who need that service to have it, but equally clearly a Yonge extension will be filled with riders because not everyone is going to/from Union Station at rush hour the way they did 40 years ago.

We agree the spine of the system is threatened and that without fixing that, the entire regional economy will suffer. There's more than one piece to fix but Toronto isn't doing enough to break the longjam, IMHO, and that means lots of other dominoes fall.

 

[lead82]

Yonge definitely needs to be extended north, at least to Steeles, but if you are extending it, might as well go to Highway 7. Finch is an awful terminal and has outgrown it's usage decades ago. Due to the track geometry, it puts a limit on how fast trains can be turned around. During rush hour it creates huge backups as far as Sheppard with trains sitting in the tunnels waiting to approach Finch. Extending Yonge north wont bring that many new riders until and unless the new developments are allowed to proceed. That wont happen for some time. Ideally, the RH GO line should also be beefed up with more frequency at a similar price as the subway to encourage more people to take the GO train.

Only in Toronto do we argue endlessly. If the same energy was put towards actually building transit we wouldn't be in the situation we have now. No lines are perfect, but Yonge actually makes sense due to ridership. It takes it up to a regional hub at Highway 7, reliefs Finch station and takes many buses of the road on Yonge between Finch and Steeles.If only one of every 2 trains went up to RHC, most of the riders would be existing TTC riders.

I think the only way to force the TTC to take the Relief line seriously is if the Province/Feds fund Yonge North. It's already passed the EA stage and just needs funding to start detailed design. We should be pushing for all the lines in the new city plan to be built. Yonge North, Relief Line, heck even the Scarborough subway should just be built as it would eliminate the political noise surrounding it. The Scarborough LRT/RT is dead, a subway will be built in some form as there is too much political weight on it so we might as well accept that.

Its SmartTrack that may well yet take a back-seat and be merely defined as a brand for the city portion of GO RER.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Begs the question - who's going to be occupying all those Unilever offices.

Begs the question either way. I have no clue how we expect to find leasers for a Canary Wharf equivalent next to downtown Toronto, in addition to all the office growth downtown Toronto is expected to have over the next 30 years, and I suppose York Region and Mississauga as well. We today are expected to struggle to absorb all the new office space being built. Scarborough Town Centre advocates meanwhile just have their heads in the sand I am afraid. At least York Region has some semblance of a master plan that involves bringing residents to a pedestrian and transit oriented and desirable downtown, something Scarborough lacks to even apprehend.

Toronto is nonetheless diving headfirst to assume it's role as a globally relevant alpha city. Perhaps its future growth is slated to be something miraculous even for a Toronto-booster like myself.

This only "makes more sense regionally" if you assume everyone in the 905 will always want to go to Union Station. Not only won't they in the future, they already don't. What you DO want to do is (to the extent you can) foster a multi-nodal region where people can travel to different destinations (including FROM Toronto TO Richmond Hill or Mississauga or wherever) because the capacity of the Yonge line and even Union Station is finite. The radial system is obsolete and scotch-taping new bits and pieces will only get you so far. That's really the entire logic of the entire Provincial planning system (and it's hardly an Ontario-only idea).

Well you don't get a disagreement from this Midtown resident. A year and a half ago my dad received a reasonable job offer from Guelph but commuting options were limited so it was declined. Even with GO-RER, my dad's commute in 2025 without a car would have involved taking transit to Union or Mt. Dennis station. Unreasonable.

I think in the long-run, we need to re-active the Midtown corridor for GO-RER transit purposes. Even if the line would not be profitable from a ridership standpoint, it would unlock all kinds of new network connectivity options. Connectivity is part of how you make a regional transit network. It is part of the reason why in the long-run, the Yonge subway should eventually terminate in the Langstaff transit hub.

I'm not playing us vs. them at all. I think we're all one big region and Toronto isn't really coming around to that way of thinking. I think Toronto's neglect of their own needs (some of which is not entirely their fault) is putting the larger region at risk, at least in the long term. It's the attitude that, "TTC is too crowded for YR residents; they should take GO," that's Us vs. Them. People will take the transit service that meets their needs, not the one foisted upon them by someone who thinks they know. It's not 1967 anymore and GO service to Union Station is not the be-all-and-end-all of transportation planning. Clearly you want the people who need that service to have it, but equally clearly a Yonge extension will be filled with riders because not everyone is going to/from Union Station at rush hour the way they did 40 years ago.

We agree the spine of the system is threatened and that without fixing that, the entire regional economy will suffer.

Then I think we agree on what needs to be done. Question is, will York Region politicians obstruct regional priorities in pushing for the Yonge North extension ahead of the Relief Line to Sheppard?

York Region is asking for $4.2 billion dollars from the federal government. That is enough to match the provincial government's commitments for the Relief Line and allow us to get it all the way to Sheppard. Afterwards York Region can get it's subway extension because we know it will become a provincial election issue soon enough. (money seems to be finite, except for in times of elections)

 

[rbt]

I've never heard York Region say they wouldn't. It is, however, as we all know, Toronto's subway.

We know that they will not be contributing to the operating subsidy for the Spadina extension into their territory. The agreement there is TTC gets the fares and the expenses; but we are not expecting fares to cover the expenses.

Of course, Metrolinx might cover it for them (they've not offered for Spadina; but they might pickup 30 years SOGR for Eglinton depending how much fare-box revenue they take) in which case I have zero issue with this extension at all.

Overload Yonge; TTC can turnback 90% of trains at Finch until the central congestion is solved by the province.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

It YNSE operations will not cover its expenses, under no circumstances will I support the extension, unless York Region covers the operation costs.