TOareaFan
Superstar
What does that say about the York Concourse if a retailer that has been at Union...has, seemingly, had some success at Union......would rather sit it out for 2 years than move to York Concourse?
Toronto Union Station Revitalization | ?m | ?s | City of Toronto | NORR
nfitz
Superstar
There's a good article on the Bay Concourse construction in Canadian Consulting Engineer. http://www.canadianconsultingengine...-viaduct-moves-into-complex-phase/1003400784/
Union Station “big dig” below viaduct moves into complex phase - Work involves cutting and replacing columns that bear enormous weight
Union Station “big dig” below viaduct moves into complex phase - Work involves cutting and replacing columns that bear enormous weight
CDL.TO
Moderator
Thanks Malfada Boy for the link.
Agreed. This is really more like a wayfinding catalogue, not a wayfinding manual. It's really lacking on how information should be communicated and what and where certain signs and graphics should be used.
One good example of this issue is stairs and escalators. As someone who has had to navigate the system with someone who has limited mobility who can handle escalators, but not stairs, the use of icons is inconsistent and unhelpful. Does a sign with both a staircase and an escalator icon mean "you will need to use stairs if you go this way" or does it mean "you have a choice between stairs and an escalator if you go this way"? (Answer: you don't know because there's no consistent application.)
Agreed. This is really more like a wayfinding catalogue, not a wayfinding manual. It's really lacking on how information should be communicated and what and where certain signs and graphics should be used.
One good example of this issue is stairs and escalators. As someone who has had to navigate the system with someone who has limited mobility who can handle escalators, but not stairs, the use of icons is inconsistent and unhelpful. Does a sign with both a staircase and an escalator icon mean "you will need to use stairs if you go this way" or does it mean "you have a choice between stairs and an escalator if you go this way"? (Answer: you don't know because there's no consistent application.)
Toffy
Active Member
The article is kind of misleading. How do you think they built the (yet to be opened) lower level at the York Concourse? They've been performing this complex phase for quite some time now. Carillion has already performed the "big dig" under the York , VIA and Bay South Concourses and as of June has completed 313 of the 331 columns supporting the tracks as part of their contract. Bondfield will be simply be doing the last ones that are in the recently closed Bay Concourse as part of their big dig.
Page 9 of this document outlines the work that has been performed so far. http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2015/gm/bgrd/backgroundfile-81488.pdf
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Nope, it's not misleading at all - the technique is actually a bit different given the far weight of the headhouse (remember, the previous digdown of the York concourse does not involve the space below the headhouse proper). The lead engineer was pretty clear about that in the article:
AoD
Toffy
Active Member
Whoops, I guess I should have been more attentive.
tnarduzzi
Active Member
AlvinofDiaspar,
The more I think about it... This direct correlation can be drawn:
- The TTC manual is "less vigorous" and thereby the TTC signage is consistently poor.
- The TfL/LU manual is "exhaustive" and thereby the TfL/LU signage is consistently excellent.
Tt least when the Bay Concourse closed somebody had the presence of mind to clean up the wayfinding and signage in the remaining "temporary" section in front of the TTC. They even "blacked-out" the no longer relevant icons on the vintage-1978 overhead backlit signage boards. Way to go the extra mile! -- It's really the little things in life that make me smile.
Cheers,
tnarduzzi
tnarduzzi
Active Member
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
The manual should be about design philosophy first and foremost - it represents a way of thinking about signage that is fundamental to the organization. The TfL manual seem to have grasped that - and everything else flowed from it naturally. That's not the impression I have of the TTC version which felt like going through the motions (i.e look I have a section on THAT too) but not really coherent overall.
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drum118
Superstar
On top of being 5, the columns where out of alignment to the point columns had to increase in size so they would align up in a straight row. Also, some of the footing had to be rebuilt as they where in poor shape.Bloody awesome! How many floors is that again? 5?
More goes behind the scene that the public never sees in the first place.
My visit Oct 12, 2012
https://www.flickr.com/photos/drum118/8432852755/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/drum118/8433952112/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/drum118/8433949004/
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AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
That's where the city is at fault - public engagement for whole revitalization process appears to be, at best, an afterthought. We're told again and again that this is one of the biggest, most challenging project in Canada right now - but there is scant coverage of that.
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drum118
Superstar
I agree, but it a real safety issue in the first place and something I will try to deal with for this phase.
They could allow the public a first hand view a year from now, but would require a lot of safety measure to be in place as well done on a weekend
I posted above some photo I shot in 2012 as link since Flickr not allowing me to find the photos in the first place to post them normally.
mdrejhon
Senior Member
The Bay mall will probably be relatively quiet (compared to the old Bay Concourse chaos) for the first 5 years because of lack of pedestrian connections and routes. They don't want an "islanded" situation like the dead mall level at AURA condos (okay, that's a bit extreme -- but you get my idea). Basically, a Catch-22 chicken-and-egg of missing pedestrian connections -- there's no TTC PATH throughput at the same level as the Bay retail level, to pull in customers. Instead, people have to go downwards via the York concourse only, with few other pedestrian routes. The big names (Burger Priest) and the lack of food elsewhere, will be a draw, but it likely will be nowhere near as busy as the old Bay Concourse -- initially, at first.
Once the whole retail level is done (east-west connected) and all York PATH connections are opened, this will bring the necessary traffic for retail to be successful. 2015 just isn't the year to risk major decrease in business. 2017+ will be it, once the York retail level is a through-route for commuters/PATH/TTC/stadiumgoers/etc.
Because of this, between year 2015 and year 2018 is probably literally more than an order of magnitude more pedestrian traffic through the York retail level.
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AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
It doesn't have to be public access to the site - I mean, surely the multitude of organizations (City, contractors, engineers, whatnot) have access to, and presumably does document the condition of the building and work progression for various reasons - it can be as simple a matter of keeping the website and social media up to date (neither are). I mean, just look at how little stuff and how out of date the stuff on Youtube is:
https://www.youtube.com/user/unionstationTO
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drum118
Superstar
If the public saw things first hand, they would understand what is taking place as well having to wait X years/months before they can use their normal route. Also to appreciate what been done for everyone, but there will be a batch who don't care other than making their life a living hell.
Youtube does some of this, but not everyone wants to use it to see things as it not being there in person to see it. I rarely view videos including my own.
I was planning to video the last day, but fail to go back later in the day when there would be less traffic around. Also to do more photo shots.