Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited

[AnarchoSocialist]

I've never seen the problem being with a premium Pearson-Union to service. But if SNC-Lavalin wants to operate such a service it should do so without taxpayer funding, without the provinces help in creating a monopoly on railway access, and in an operating environment where GO or VIA or the TTC can operate service as well. If they still believe they can make money off of a $20/trip express service under those conditions, then let them.

At this point I think the whole study should be tossed to the bin and done over. Right now it is a collection of half-assed solutions that are little more than a waste of time given in 5 or 10 years time they will have to turn around and propose better solutions that should have been implemented in the first place.

 

[urbanfan89]

Please, just kill Blue22 out of its miserable existance and use the resources we already have.

Thank you.

 

[FutureMayor]

Go Blue 22!

I'm so pleased to hear that this project is finally moving along politically. The faster we get shovels into the ground and get the Blue 22 line running the better! I have no problem with building a stop in Weston, as this new direct Airport link is far superiour to the options we have now. It has always embrassed me to see tourists use The TTC "Airport Rocket" from Kipling subway station.

I also fully support public funds being used to maintain and operate this badly needed service. The VIVA system in York Region is a good example of where the P3 model for building and operating a new transit system can work successfully.

While already having invested millions into preparing for the new service, as a key partner that will benefit directly, I would like to see the Greater Toronto Airport Authority formally contribute to the capital cost of building and operating the system.

Louroz

 

[nfitz]

Yeah, that's what we need. A requirement for the GTAA to spend more money, and thus make the airfares into Toronto even more expensive.

 

[ShonTron]

I do not support any public money spent on Blue 22 if it still has the $20-25 fare to the airport, pricing many, especially airport workers, out of the 60-year old RDCs (will these be an embarrasment to Toronto?).

If SNC-Lavalin, out of a new deal to placate them, got the contract from Metrolinks to build and operate the service, but the fares were brought inline with local fares (I would not necessarily be opposed to a $5 "premium" for airport users - employees would be exempt) to ride all the way in, if the fare was otherwise a TTC or GO fare.

I would also expect that GO have enough access to the rails to provide at least hourly all day, every day service to Mount Pleasant, and that a station at Woodbine, Eglinton and/or Queen Street is considered, and that VIA be free to add trains to Guelph/Kitchener. (The old plans did not plan for much of an increase of GO or VIA movements.)

I hope that this is not a poor compromise with a few bones thrown to Weston to get this pushed through the new EA process, because Blue 22 still smells like a rat.

 

[FutureMayor]

I always viewed this airport link as an economic development tool to promote tourism and greatly enchance the visitor commuting experience into downtown Toronto. In my opinion having visitors destined for downtown ride on a newly refurbished RDCs is far better then having them ride a TTC Airport Rocket bus, having them transfer at Kipling Subway and then again on the University or Yonge Line.

While the current airport express buses offers a certain level of service, I would rather have those buses off the Gardiner Expressway, and save visitors from having to experience Toronto's crumbling roads and rush hour traffic. I would much rather have visitors experience an express train service, which would be a far more appealing way to welcome visitors to the city.

I also would also be opposed to a discounted fare for any airport workers. We currently do not give airport workers a discount for using the new GO Airport Shuttles between Mississauga City Centre and Richmond Hill Centre, so why would we do such a thing for this new line?.

It sounds like you are under this great assumption that a large number of airport workers live in the downtown core. I'm willing to bet that a vast majority of them actually live in the outlying 416 suburbs and the 905 region.

I also have a strong feeling that a good number of them probably drive/car pool to the airport and a strong indiction of that is the new massive employee parking decks now under construction.

Louroz

 

[RedRocket191]

We need a comprehensive solution to move people towards Pearson, some should be express, while others should be local. The london experience is a good model to use, as there are various ways to get from Heathrow to Paddington, each for different prices and different speeds.

Heathrow Express offers the fastest service for a higher price, and Heathrow Connect makes stops, takes 10 minutes longer and costs less than half the price. Add to that buses, underground and buses-to-rail connections and you have many different options for different prices.

Since Heathrow Express runs twice as frequently as Heathrow Connect, I would flip that around and apply that service model to the Peel-Pearson-Weston corridor.

 

[ShonTron]

I always viewed this airport link as an economic development tool to promote tourism and greatly enchance the visitor commuting experience into downtown Toronto. In my opinion having visitors destined for downtown ride on a newly refurbished RDCs is far better then having them ride a TTC Airport Rocket bus, having them transfer at Kipling Subway and then again on the University or Yonge Line.

But the argument that you and other Blue 22 supporters have used is that it's Blue 22 or the 192 to Kipling. That another solution is not feasible.

While the current airport express buses offers a certain level of service, I would rather have those buses off the Gardiner Expressway, and save visitors from having to experience Toronto's crumbling roads and rush hour traffic. I would much rather have visitors experience an express train service, which would be a far more appealing way to welcome visitors to the city.

I'd like a service that would offer a rapid rail service that also doesn't gouge tourists, or where a taxi, with door-to-door service, wouldn't actually be a cheaper option for groups of two or more.

I also would also be opposed to a discounted fare for any airport workers. We currently do not give airport workers a discount for using the new GO Airport Shuttles between Mississauga City Centre and Richmond Hill Centre, so why would we do such a thing for this new line?.

Uh, the GO buses to the airport charge a GO fare, while still expensive (especially without local fare integration) is still a hell of a lot better than $20-25. Also consider that many airport workers would find that the $20 one-way fare cost almost as much as 2 hours of work. Let the airport workers eat cake!

It sounds like you are under this great assumption that a large number of airport workers live in the downtown core. I'm willing to bet that a vast majority of them actually live in the outlying 416 suburbs and the 905 region.

If you read my earlier arguments against Blue 22 as proposed, I have been clear in stating that the exclusive downtown-airport service is flawed because it ignores intermediate markets, or markets in places like Malton and Brampton.

May I ask you if you support public money going to a $20-25 suit express, ignoring all other needs of the Weston/Georgetown corridor just to provide an express 22 minute ride, instead of a subsidized service meeting more of the many needs on the corridor?

 

[AnarchoSocialist]

I'm so pleased to hear that this project is finally moving along politically. The faster we get shovels into the ground and get the Blue 22 line running the better! I have no problem with building a stop in Weston, as this new direct Airport link is far superiour to the options we have now.

Just because it is better than what exists now does not in itself mean that it should be built. The best option is close to what RedRocket191 said, offer a wide variety of service, from local commuter options on GO in both the Union and Kitchener directions, to express/premium Union-Pearson service for business travellers and tourists with heavy wallets, and VIA. All in one in station. All services being offered a chance to use the line and benefit from public investments.

I think that tourists will have a nicer trip into Toronto using rail service is a bonus, but building transit and tranportation infrastructure should be to the benefit of the residents and those living in the region first and foremost.

 

[urbanfan89]

Here's my idea:

Improve the Weston Sub to provide frequent regular GO Trains, like 15 minute frequencies.

Rebuild the Malton station into an intermodal hub, with GO and VIA trains and with Finch West LRT.

Build the Renforth hub as identified in the Metrolinx White Paper.

Extend the People Mover south to Renforth and north to Malton, through the Right of Way that is reserved for Blue22. Convert the People Mover to ICTS.

Develop the land around Malton Station for commercial office space.

And there you go. Blue22 will be the dinkiest airport train in the world.

 

[FutureMayor]

ShonTron:

What are the other viable options on the table? I can't speak for others, however I haven't ruled any other options out. In my humble opinion, Blue22 IS the best and frankly THE only viable and serious option on the table at the moment. Let's also not forget that this has the financial support of two senior levels of government, along with the airport authority itself. I'm overly excited that we are on verge of getting it built finally.


As for your radical and misplaced claim that this new service will some how gouge tourists, you are simply wrong. $20 - 25 won't even get me a taxi ride home to Mississauga City Centre, nevermind to downtown Toronto. It would take 3 people, not 2 as you claimed to make a taxi trip to downtown Toronto affordable. I love that thinking too; "don't bother coming to Toronto unless you have 3 people in your party to take a cheap taxi ride downtown"!

Also, I'm not sure where you suddenly got this inspiration to help a select few Airport Workers who live in downtown Toronto ride a rail service built specifically for tourists is kind of odd. I suspect the real cake your after is for cheap rail tickets to your former hometown of Brampton.

Let us be clear that Blue 22 was never designed to serve the needs of the people of Brampton or Malton, we have GO Transit that is already planning to enchance the service on that corridor. The purpose of Blue 22 is to support and grow the GTA's vital TOURISM INDUSTRY, by providing the millions of annual tourists and business people visiting Toronto a fast, realiable and efficient rail connection between the Airport and Union Station.

AnarchoSocialist:

Blue22 is one major piece to the transportation puzzle. Clearly, the transportation needs of local residents in the GTA are not being ignored as Metrolinx is finally looking and planning the bigger picture. A recent example is the GO Airport Express from Mississauga and Richmond Hill. In the long run, the new Renforth Transporation Hub has been funded and will connect the Mississauga BRT and Eglinton LRT with the Airport.

Louroz

 

[ShonTron]

I'm sure the tourists stay away from Toronto because of the lack of an $20-25 a pop express airport rail link.

To remind you of what the other options are, Louroz, I suggest you read back to all the posts suggesting a semi-express service also serving Mount Dennis, Weston and Rexdale to provide these underserved areas a rapid transit network. As for my "radical and misplaced claim" - there's lots of places en route that could be served by a rapid transit route to the airport, including airport employees and travelers, that will see no benefit because of Blue 22.

When Blue 22 was proposed, it called for a premium express service that would take up most of the capacity improvements made to the Weston sub, and GO and VIA would get second billing. GO did not even promise at the EA meetings (which I attended) anything more than a few extra trains a day, not all day service. SNC-Lavalin was also caught in a conflict of interest, being the EA consultant on a project for which it was a proponent.

I'll ask you again, do you support using public funds to pay for a private $20-25/ride premium express service? Especially when so many other markets are ignored? Leave your issues with Brampton out of this - I'm looking at the big picture here.

 

[FutureMayor]

I'm sure the tourists stay away from Toronto because of the lack of an $20-25 a pop express airport rail link

If you say that is this is truly the case, even more reason to build Blue22!

To remind you of what the other options are, Louroz, I suggest you read back to all the posts suggesting a semi-express service also serving Mount Dennis, Weston and Rexdale to provide these underserved areas a rapid transit network.

Is that a serious proposal, that has been presented, studied and recieved the financial support of two senior levels of government, along with the airport authority itself?

As for my "radical and misplaced claim" - there's lots of places en route that could be served by a rapid transit route to the airport, including airport employees and travelers, that will see no benefit because of Blue 22.

I agree, however what that have anything to do with the price of taxi rides you convinently brought up in your last post?

When Blue 22 was proposed, it called for a premium express service that would take up most of the capacity improvements made to the Weston sub, and GO and VIA would get second billing. GO did not even promise at the EA meetings (which I attended) anything more than a few extra trains a day, not all day service. SNC-Lavalin was also caught in a conflict of interest, being the EA consultant on a project for which it was a proponent.

Sounds like you have a clear bias towards ensuring Brampton gets all day GO service. This is the first time I've heard that Brampton won't be getting its long planned all day GO Train Service because of Blue 22? Where is the outrage from the Mayor's Office in Brampton and the Brampton Board of Trade?

I'll ask you again, do you support using public funds to pay for an economic investment tool that will greatly support the multi billion dollar Tourism and Convention Industry in the GTA. Especially when hundreds of thousands of people work and benefit from the tourism industry?

I suggest YOU leave your issues with Brampton out of this - I'm clearly the only one looking at the big picture here.

Louroz

 

[AnarchoSocialist]

What are the other viable options on the table? I can't speak for others, however I haven't ruled any other options out. In my humble opinion, Blue22 IS the best and frankly THE only viable and serious option on the table at the moment. Let's also not forget that this has the financial support of two senior levels of government, along with the airport authority itself. I'm overly excited that we are on verge of getting it built finally.

But that is the point. The options on the table are bad options. None of them should be picked. Blue 22 was not a well thought out plan by a transportation agency. It was a whim of a federal government who decided it would be good for business and votes and give a few companies a chance to make some money, SNC-Lavalin being the lucky jackpot winner. With the EA process being radically changed going back to the drawing board is an even better idea than before. So what if it takes a year or two longer to put something in place. A new plan could actually take into account the needs of ALL people and parties that have an interest in using that corridor, not just a tiny segment of the population.

Let us be clear that Blue 22 was never designed to serve the needs of the people of Brampton or Malton, we have GO Transit that is already planning to enchance the service on that corridor. The purpose of Blue 22 is to support and grow the GTA's vital TOURISM INDUSTRY, by providing the millions of annual tourists and business people visiting Toronto a fast, realiable and efficient rail connection between the Airport and Union Station.

But this plan gives almost exclusive domain to useful and direct access to Pearson to Blue 22 leaving GO in the shadow, trying to link its distant stations in hackneyed ways. Will GO trains be entering a multi-user station at Pearson? Will people going too and from the airport from other parts of the GTA other than downtown Toronto be served in anything close to the same manner? No. Visitors get something good while residents are left with scraps.

Blue22 is one major piece to the transportation puzzle. Clearly, the transportation needs of local residents in the GTA are not being ignored as Metrolinx is finally looking and planning the bigger picture. A recent example is the GO Airport Express from Mississauga and Richmond Hill. In the long run, the new Renforth Transporation Hub has been funded and will connect the Mississauga BRT and Eglinton LRT with the Airport. Louroz

No. Blue 22 is not a major piece of the transportation puzzle. The Weston Corridor is however. Connecting Pearson with as many parts of the GTA (and beyond) as possible with rail service is very important. Lakeshore and Georgetown corridors are major parts of the transportation puzzle.

Blue 22 is a niche service, for business people and tourists, which should not take priority and funding away from the transportation needs of the residents. As I said before, let SNC-Lavalin have its service, but under no circumstances should it be put ahead of creating a far more beneficial and extensive inner and inter-city network. Taxpayer money should be going to building a corridor and access to Pearson that benefits the majority, not creating a monopoly for a private company and leaving local residents at the curb.

EDIT:

I'll ask you again, do you support using public funds to pay for an economic investment tool that will greatly support the multi billion dollar Tourism and Convention Industry in the GTA. Especially when hundreds of thousands of people work and benefit from the tourism industry?

Building a station on site at Pearson and upgrading the Weston and Georgetown corridors to offer 15 minute GO service that would serve Union AND other destinations across the GTA at $7 - $10 a ticket would also do the exact same thing to help out tourism but also benefit residents of Toronto and the GTA and help reduce congestion by enhancing the transit network thus adding a further economic benefit to the city.

 

[ShonTron]

I'll be clear. I do NOT support public funds paying for Blue 22 as proposed, even put into your loaded question, I'll still say no. I do support regional rail and rapid transit services being built to the airport. If SNC-Lavalin can build and operate Blue 22 on its own dime, all the power to them. Could you answer my question, please?

Believe me, if this was an alternate universe where the 1970s plan to build Pickering and replace Pearson with it (it was seriously considered!) and Blue 22 was planned from Union to Pickering, skipping Malvern, Agincourt and other areas and leaving them without service and public money paying for private interests, I'd be just as opposed, and advocating a regional rail option.

And with a population of 450,000, Brampton does deserve better GO service, as well as other underserved regions such as Malton, Rexdale and Weston and Mount Dennis, with the all day commuter service leading into regional rail. I won't deny that they deserve better either.

Cheers,
Sean