Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited

[ehlow]

Thanks...that is why I asked about the motion....saying "affordable" is silly......but I guess, since it is about $7 to Malton they are saying $7? Perhaps they didn't actually say that because even they realize how off that is.

It may be just something for the councillors to say to their to voters "did something" or they "tried but Metrolinx wouldn't listen".

Just like Pasternak and his "north york relief line". He probably knows he won't it the next transit project, but he keeps bringing it up so he can tell his constituents that he's trying to get them their trophy subway.

 

[TOareaFan]

It may be just something for the councillors to say to their to voters "did something" or they "tried but Metrolinx wouldn't listen".

Just like Pasternak and his "north york relief line". He probably knows he won't it the next transit project, but he keeps bringing it up so he can tell his constituents that he's trying to get them their trophy subway.

Surely people can see that they did nothing (not that I think they should do anything....it is outside their jurisdiction).

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

It may be just something for the councillors to say to their to voters "did something" or they "tried but Metrolinx wouldn't listen".

Just like Pasternak and his "north york relief line". He probably knows he won't it the next transit project, but he keeps bringing it up so he can tell his constituents that he's trying to get them their trophy subway.

I can put this in fewer words for you: "playing politics".

 

[dowlingm]

Toronto Council just voted ask Metrolinx to set "affordable" fares and add more stops for UPX, including Eglinton & Liberty Village.

I'm guessing Metrolinx doesn't have to listen to them?

Well, they might listen, but first Council would... well... I'll let Cuba Gooding Jr say it:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vsj_UoOipic

 

[drum118]

Checked out Old Weston Rd Crossing today to see if it is still on schedule to open in late Sept and hard to say if so. Stacks are place on the bridge as to where the sidewalks and road is to go, but nothing more. The retaining walls are still not built.

They have the bracing in place north of the road now as well the retaining way, but not sure if its the full length since I couldn't see that area.

They are removing the earth in the tunnel to the south and the east wall of the 2nd tunnel is built.

They have removed the shoring between the 2 tunnel on the south end and getting ready to connect the 2 road beds.

The duel 4 track block signals tower is up north of Dupont now.

They have part of track 2 & 4 down south of Dupont.

They have started to install the melting system at the north end of Bloor new Platform, otherwise looks the same as I saw it a month ago.

They are building the new track 2 base for the Milton line at the Wallace Overpass.

Glazing is being install for the West side of the new Bloor St entrance and don't see this station being ready for Sept, let alone Dec as plan.

 

[ssiguy2]

I'm curious, seeing Metrolinx has no intention of subsidizing this line, what will happen if ridership doesn't materialize and even at $30/ticket, it's still losing money...............where do they get the money to keep running the line? If the revenue isn't there, which without subsidy will have to cover 100% of the operational costs, are they allowed to cut back the hours that is suppose to run or lessen frequency than what was guaranteed, raise fares even higher, or even potentially close the line.

I don't know of any standard rail line in Canada that actually make money so do they have any back-up plans or have they articulated any?

 

[TOareaFan]

I'm curious, seeing Metrolinx has no intention of subsidizing this line, what will happen if ridership doesn't materialize and even at $30/ticket, it's still losing money...............where do they get the money to keep running the line? If the revenue isn't there, which without subsidy will have to cover 100% of the operational costs, are they allowed to cut back the hours that is suppose to run or lessen frequency than what was guaranteed, raise fares even higher, or even potentially close the line.

I don't know of any standard rail line in Canada that actually make money so do they have any back-up plans or have they articulated any?

since we are making up their pricing we may as well make up plan b for when that pricing fails

 

[dowlingm]

I'm curious, seeing Metrolinx has no intention of subsidizing this line, what will happen if ridership doesn't materialize and even at $30/ticket, it's still losing money...............where do they get the money to keep running the line? If the revenue isn't there, which without subsidy will have to cover 100% of the operational costs, are they allowed to cut back the hours that is suppose to run or lessen frequency than what was guaranteed, raise fares even higher, or even potentially close the line.

I don't know of any standard rail line in Canada that actually make money so do they have any back-up plans or have they articulated any?

I think the real problem is that we don't have a firm idea of what Metrolinx does or does not intend, and they are not accountable should they decide to change tack so long as they keep their political masters at Queens Park happy by going along with THEIR whims.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I'm curious, seeing Metrolinx has no intention of subsidizing this line, what will happen if ridership doesn't materialize and even at $30/ticket, it's still losing money...............where do they get the money to keep running the line? If the revenue isn't there, which without subsidy will have to cover 100% of the operational costs, are they allowed to cut back the hours that is suppose to run or lessen frequency than what was guaranteed, raise fares even higher, or even potentially close the line.

I don't know of any standard rail line in Canada that actually make money so do they have any back-up plans or have they articulated any?

since we are making up their pricing we may as well make up plan b for when that pricing fails

I think the real problem is that we don't have a firm idea of what Metrolinx does or does not intend, and they are not accountable should they decide to change tack so long as they keep their political masters at Queens Park happy by going along with THEIR whims.

I think this will only break even, if it's not at 30. If you don't want the bad press, get out ahead of it. Not hard.

 

[TOareaFan]

I think this will only break even, if it's not at 30. If you don't want the bad press, get out ahead of it. Not hard.

That is such a modern and crass view on journalism.....what used to be a very respected industry has now got to "you haven't told us what your new service is gonna cost, we can't wait any longer so we are gonna make up a price, tie that to you, embarrass you with it and drive public ire against that price.......and if you don't like it, too bad you should have gotten out in front of it."

 

[nfitz]

That is such a modern and crass view on journalism.....what used to be a very respected industry has now got to "you haven't told us what your new service is gonna cost, we can't wait any longer so we are gonna make up a price, tie that to you, embarrass you with it and drive public ire against that price.......and if you don't like it, too bad you should have gotten out in front of it."

Metrolinx has said that the cost will be in the $20 to $30 range. They haven't finalized cost, but they have certainly given a range.

And as even the low-end of the range is getting people upset, the media's actions seem fair. Would you prefer they just stick to printing press releases?

 

[TOareaFan]

Metrolinx has said that the cost will be in the $20 to $30 range. They haven't finalized cost, but they have certainly given a range.

You have a source to that? All I have seen is them denying ever saying that...while acknowledging that some similar services around the world are in that range.....but their denials would look silly now if we had a link to one of them saying that.

And as even the low-end of the range is getting people upset, the media's actions seem fair. Would you prefer they just stick to printing press releases?

Since I have not (as noted above) ever seen a link/quote where ML stated their range....then I think this really is extrapolation by exaggeration. I would prefer that journos investigated/told stories rather than create them with some sort of activist agenda.

 

[nfitz]

You have a source to that? All I have seen is them denying ever saying that...while acknowledging that some similar services around the world are in that range.....but their denials would look silly now if we had a link to one of them saying that.

The range was reported by the Ontario Auditor General back in 2012 - http://www.auditor.on.ca/en/reports_en/en12/309en12.pdf where they reported that to break een, the fare would have to be $28, and that it may cost $20 to $30. They reported that Metrolinx's ridership projections were based on a $20 fare.

This was widely reported in 2012, and discussed on this very thread. See for example page 159:
http://torontoist.com/2012/12/ontar...union-pearson-rail-link-may-be-a-money-loser/
http://www.insidetoronto.com/news-s...olinx-for-high-costs-on-presto-union-station/
http://stevemunro.ca/?p=7047
http://www.thestar.com/news/city_ha...t_card_cost_has_ballooned_to_700_million.html


Here's an article in the Torontoist from then - http://torontoist.com/2012/12/ontar...union-pearson-rail-link-may-be-a-money-loser/

Since I have not (as noted above) ever seen a link/quote where ML stated their range....then I think this really is extrapolation by exaggeration. I would prefer that journos investigated/told stories rather than create them with some sort of activist agenda.

Metrolinx has been very coy about numbers. But they were required to release information to the Auditor General. We know that their ridership numbers are based on $20 (2011$ ?) and that the break even projection is $28. We also know they've recently discussed breaking even.

There's a story here.

 

[TOareaFan]

^so, ML based their projections on $20....the AG says it breaks even at $28...so we end up with a range of $20-28/30 ....so the "range" was actually two different people setting the two ends?

 

[dowlingm]

In a sense though, at least there's an honesty in having to discuss the actual costs vs revenues of a project. Imagine if TTC said "the Spadina Extension is projected to lose $10m a year in operating, so we're going to add a zone fare north of Downsview to recover 50% of the net deficit".

I don't think that UPX needs to be profitable, but it shouldn't be a millstone on the organisation either when so much extra service (and operating cost) is needed in the rest of the network.