Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited

[smallspy]

The next step should be welded rail and fixing Guelph Station to Guelph Junction. CTC should improve operations somewhat.

Nitpick: Guelph Junction is due south of Guelph, on CP. You are likely thinking of Silver, which the junction immediately west of Georgetown. And the line from Georgetown to Kitchener is already welded rail.

CTC will improve things immensely, as it will allow for far more frequent trains. The improvements in sidings will allow for a more-reliable service in the face of increased traffic.

During the nearly 40 years of hourly off peak service on Lakeshore...weren't there stretches there that were only double tracked? didn't that line have mixed rail traffic of GO/Via/Freight as well? If so, why would this line need to be more than double tracked to support it? (someone from GO sent me an email not so long ago suggesting it needed to be 4 tracks wide to support all day, 7 day, two way service).

VIA, yes. Freight, not really. The York/Halton Sub project was specifically done to move the vast majority of freight traffic out of downtown Toronto, and the freed-up capacity was used to begin GO service.

They don't quite need 4 tracks through Brampton, but the additional tracks that were installed a couple of years ago to Mount Pleasant are part of the improvements that were needed for all-day service on the line. And if CN increases freight traffic much more, a third track at Brampton Station may well be necessary.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[ShonTron]

Nitpick: Guelph Junction is due south of Guelph, on CP. You are likely thinking of Silver, which the junction immediately west of Georgetown. And the line from Georgetown to Kitchener is already welded rail.

CTC will improve things immensely, as it will allow for far more frequent trains. The improvements in sidings will allow for a more-reliable service in the face of increased traffic.

I meant CN Guelph Junction, not CP Guelph Junction (which I am well aware of). The 9MPH speed limit between Guelph Station and CN Guelph Junction at Alma Street is painful.

When was the Guelph Sub provided with welded rail?

 

[Allandale25]

Quick Questions

I meant CN Guelph Junction, not CP Guelph Junction (which I am well aware of). The 9MPH speed limit between Guelph Station and CN Guelph Junction at Alma Street is painful.

When was the Guelph Sub provided with welded rail?

I realize this technically isn't part of GTS but has the new track on the Credit River bridge been opened? And have they finished the new track that goes around the Silver Junction (it leads into and out of the GO yard in Georgetown).

 

[drum118]

First of all, its impossible to put in stations between Bathurst and Dundas with 8 tracks there since there is no room for a station or platforms in the first place.

Unless you expropriate land as well close off streets, you could put in one for King or Queen or a joint one by doing so.

If you remove 1 tracks in each tunnel for Strachan, you can get in a narrow platform, but too late.

Eyes roll when GO says as well TTC curb platforms are an issues and guess they haven't been to Europe.

Europe has both surface and subways with curve platform with single man crew where there are cameras at both ends of the platform as well in the centre. Never saw an issues with them. Even the drivers have said the same thing that I talked to.

Three tracks through Brampton is a must with 4 tracks up to Georgetown. This way, Go has CN out of their hair to a point, but must have a flyunder to get to the north side.

The Georgetown Line moves to the Strachan underpass on Monday for track 7. It possible that the Milton line will use track 7 on Monday as well. Milton Line will be in the underpass either by Nov 4 or 11 and ahead of Nov 18 schedule.

Once the Milton line is move, Strachan Crossing will be history and will be deactivated. Tracks will be remove to allow the start of the excavation of the 2nd underpass in December.

As it stands now, 3 tracks will be in each underpass until the 4th is needed.

The Deck Spans for the 2nd Diamond underpass are schedule for May/June 2014, but trying to do both in May.

 

[Allandale25]

The Georgetown Line moves to the Strachan underpass on Monday for track 7. It possible that the Milton line will use track 7 on Monday as well. Milton Line will be in the underpass either by Nov 4 or 11 and ahead of Nov 18 schedule.

I've seen pictures showing VIA using the new track. So are they on the Barrie track and then staying on the GTS corridor? Also, another quick question. I realize freight trains would be rare but does the grade allow for freight trains to use the corridor? I'm pretty sure because it's at 2% it does.

 

[drum118]

I've seen pictures showing VIA using the new track. So are they on the Barrie track and then staying on the GTS corridor? Also, another quick question. I realize freight trains would be rare but does the grade allow for freight trains to use the corridor? I'm pretty sure because it's at 2% it does.

Having VIA use Track 8 now allows for the full closure of the surface line during the day to speed up construction of the overpass support and retaining wall work. There are various crossover to the north of Strachan to get from the Barrie line to the GTS or Milton line.

CN train can handle the 2%, but requires more horsepower depending on the weight and length of the train. You can find 2-3% grades out west and in the US that require slaves and pushers to get the trains up them.

 

[vegeta_skyline]

Work is being done right now to install CTC on the GEXR/CN Guelph Sub. The next step should be welded rail and fixing Guelph Station to Guelph Junction. CTC should improve operations somewhat.

From what I heard last year its a done deal. VIA is paying for the CTC installation and GO is paying for track improvements i.e. welded rail, if they haven't started yet then they're probably waiting for the CTC work to be finished.

I realize this technically isn't part of GTS but has the new track on the Credit River bridge been opened? And have they finished the new track that goes around the Silver Junction (it leads into and out of the GO yard in Georgetown).

The Credit bridge was widen to two tracks, otherwise nothing else has changed yet in that area. The Kitchener trains have to pull into the Georgetown yard at 10mph to make there station stop. Work is underway on a third track over the credit but it wont be finished until sometime next year.

I realize freight trains would be rare but does the grade allow for freight trains to use the corridor? I'm pretty sure because it's at 2% it does.

It's a non-issue because the only freights that ever head down that way are short CP road switchers heading down to the portlands.

 

[reaperexpress]

If there are quite a few hurdles to triple-tracking through Brampton (bridge replacements, etc), would it not be easier for Metrolinx to build a freight bypass through the 407 ROW?That would have the effect of potentially relieving both the Kitchener line and the Milton line (assuming that track sharing arrangements can be negotiated). I'm not sure what the relationship between CN and CP is in terms of sharing track, but I think that if CN could be convinced to let CP use their York Sub (I think that's the name of it, the line that runs E-W just north of Steeles), then both major freight companies could have a single bypass line for Toronto, which would free up an enormous amount of track for commuter rail service.

Yes, a western extension of the York subdivision probably would be easier, and possibly even cheaper given the high cost of construction on active high-traffic railways. Plus Downtown Brampton would have fewer diesel trains passing through, so less air pollution, less noise and less shady railway overpasses.

I'm not sure about how the alignment would benefit CP, but we should definitely be forming a partnership with CN to start studying the line.

The real question is how to get this on Metrolinx's radar. It's not like residents will be actively demanding it like a subway to STC. It's more like the DRL or GTS: necessary for service expansion, but not hugely flashy on its own.

 

[gweed123]

Yes, a western extension of the York subdivision probably would be easier, and possibly even cheaper given the high cost of construction on active high-traffic railways. Plus Downtown Brampton would have fewer diesel trains passing through, so less air pollution, less noise and less shady railway overpasses.

I'm not sure about how the alignment would benefit CP, but we should definitely be forming a partnership with CN to start studying the line.

The real question is how to get this on Metrolinx's radar. It's not like residents will be actively demanding it like a subway to STC. It's more like the DRL or GTS: necessary for service expansion, but not hugely flashy on its own.

That's a very good point. Yes, it's hard to explain to the average person how building a new rail line that will be used exclusively by freight trains will somehow benefit public transit. There's no seemingly direct correlation, unless you have an understanding of the different kinds of traffic that currently use the Georgetown line.

As for my comment about CP, what I was hoping is that where the CN and CP lines cross near the Pickering-Scarborough border, that some sort of a diamond could be built there that would allow CP to reroute their trains on the York Sub as well, thereby leaving most of the CP Midtown and Milton lines free (or nearly free) of freight traffic, which would allow for expanded GO service. Their Scarborough yard may have to be reconfigured to function more like the CN yard in Vaughan, but it could work. Of course, all that is predicated on CN and CP being willing to share track.

The benefits to GO service on the Kitchener line alone would make the freight bypass worth it, but if you can get CP on board as well and divert off the Milton and Midtown lines too? Heck, that's a pretty good 2-for-1 deal.

 

[ssiguy2]

As for my idea of running LRT along GO corridors to serve Torontonians, well it turns out Surrey is looking at exactly that for it's LRT corridors. They said there would of course be issues with dealing with CP rail {which is of little concern in Toronto due to GO owning the tracks} but said they know of the technology and they are legal in Canada as they are just a reinvention of the old interurban which were never banned but rather just sort of faded away.

 

[Palma]

Exactly...you think business travellers (and not just them...any travel-weary person getting off a plane after a long flight) want to figure out which bus to take, lug their bags on a bus not really designed for the airport crowd, transfer to a subway, then maybe take another bus to get to their eventual destination? I don't think so. A well-signed and conveniently-located $20 train trip downtown, they maybe a subway trip or a $5 cab ride to their hotel, sounds good to me.

Sounds like a single person talking. A family of 4 = $80.00

 

[TOareaFan]

Sounds like a single person talking. A family of 4 = $80.00

No mode of transportation can/will be perfect for all......so, yes, if the train costs $20 per person then families (any group of 4 really) will have to decide if a cab downtown from Pearson at $56 + tip and a somewhat variable travel time makes more sense than a $80 fare on a train with a defined timeline. But, I would bet, they have stats on the average "group size" making those airport to downtown (and vise versa) and I bet it is not 4.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I still maintain that I feel the price will be lower than $20. I really feel $15 would be the most appropriate.

 

[christiesplits]

I still maintain that I feel the price will be lower than $20. I really feel $15 would be the most appropriate.

I'm thinking in the high 20's. They want it to be fully cost recoverable. It would still be roughly half the price of a taxi to Bay & King. As mentioned before, this project is not targeted towards families on March Break. This is about relieving Pan Am congestion and getting corporate types from Malton to First Canadian Place as quickly as possible. Short-sighted? Yes. Band-aid solution? Probably.

 

[Hipster Duck]

I am not as pessimistic about the economic viability of this project as everyone else. Even if it costs $30, Toronto is so woefully undersupplied with transit relative to demand that even a premium service will probably attract enough riders. There really are that many people who would be willing to fork over that kind of money to get to the airport reliably and on time from downtown. The fact that it runs every 15 minutes like clockwork is part of its appeal and will attract people, even if many of those trains - particularly late at night - will run empty.

I think we also overestimate the number of travelers who are families with children. Families with children:

1. Are no longer a huge proportion of any society's population (I think that households without children have overtaken households with children)
2. Don't tend to live downtown
3. Don't tend to fly into cities to visit downtowns
4. Don't actually fly that often compared to other groups
5. A family of 4 will use 1 cab, while 4 business people will take individual cabs, so families coming in from the airport don't contribute much to congestion

I don't think they should be any downtown rail service's target market.