H
Hydrogen
Guest
And senior levels of government don't pay that much attention to cities.
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Blixtein
Active Member
I agree. It's so incredibly stupid that I actually started laughing out loud while reading this nonsense.
ShonTron
Moderator
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It's not the brightest idea, but if it's revenue neutral or even profitable for the city through renting, then there's much dumber things. I'm not entirely opposed to it, especially if it helps with giving choice for street grub.
Diversifying the food selection beyond street meat is John Filion's pet project.
Diversifying the food selection beyond street meat is John Filion's pet project.
wyliepoon
Senior Member
Why do we need "carts" anyway?
If Toronto wants to bring in street food from other cultures, then it should recognize that not every culture's street food need to be served at carts. For example, Asian street food (China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, etc.) is more often sold at streetside or sidewalk stalls with a couple of tables and stools on the sidewalk for people to sit and eat at (in Hong Kong this is the famous "dai pai dong").
I think it would be nice to bring this kind of setup in Toronto. The city could designate an open space (such as a parking lot) as a dai pai dong, and allow street food vendors to set up their own stalls in whatever way they want. The summer night markets in suburban Chinese malls have tried to replicate the dai pai dong, but with all the stalls looking the same, and with no place for people to sit and eat, those attempts are not very successful.
If Toronto wants to bring in street food from other cultures, then it should recognize that not every culture's street food need to be served at carts. For example, Asian street food (China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, etc.) is more often sold at streetside or sidewalk stalls with a couple of tables and stools on the sidewalk for people to sit and eat at (in Hong Kong this is the famous "dai pai dong").
I think it would be nice to bring this kind of setup in Toronto. The city could designate an open space (such as a parking lot) as a dai pai dong, and allow street food vendors to set up their own stalls in whatever way they want. The summer night markets in suburban Chinese malls have tried to replicate the dai pai dong, but with all the stalls looking the same, and with no place for people to sit and eat, those attempts are not very successful.
syn
Senior Member
This actually doesn't seem like a terrible idea. I'm sure if there wasn't a budget crisis we'd be looking at it differently. At the rate they're proposing it would be about 4 years before the carts are paid off. With advertising revenue it could be a lot faster...and then after that they're making money. They'd also get a standard "Toronto style" cart that could end up being something the city becomes known for...if they do it properly of course.
Given the current financial situation, however, the timing is terrible.
Given the current financial situation, however, the timing is terrible.
nstuch
Active Member
our boy Terence hits the nail on the head
************************************
Corcoran: Toronto street-food project half-baked at best
Terence Corcoran, National Post
Published: Friday, November 23, 2007
TORONTO -Toronto, idea butcher for the world. City of crumbling infrastructure, nutbar politicians and an ongoing fiscal crisis, has another attribute too seldom recognized. City officials have a singular ability to take damn good ideas and turn them into really dumb politicized nightmares.
The latest damn good idea was to open the city's street-corner food carts, now monopolized by hot dog merchants, to the four culinary corners of the world. The tantalizing image, full of free-market potential, was that of an urban foodscape of colourful stands selling the world's culture to go: samosas and pizza, fresh fruit, jerk chicken, tofu dishes, Singapore noodles and, who knows, maybe a Parisian crepe or two.
Making this street-food bonanza possible was a provincial regulatory change removing prohibitions that limited street vendor options to, approximately, hot dogs, hot dogs and veggie dogs, washed down with a Pepsi.
The hot dogs are among the best in the world, in my opinion, toasted and grilled, and way better than the steamed mushy things available in New York. Still, a modern multicultural city like Toronto needs variety, change, all the things deregulated free enterprise can bring.
Then came the really dumb political idea. The regulation opening up the Toronto vending-cart market has been in place since last August. But no vendors have appeared. Toronto streets remain samosa-free -- thanks to City Hall, which has put the whole idea on hold while officials develop the "Toronto Street Food Project Plan."
John Filion, city council member from Ward 23, in outer Willowdale, and chairman of the city's board of health, has a plan. He wants to set up a city-owned vending cart cartel, with the city buying carts and leasing 30 of them to vendors.
The tentacles of planning, once in control, never let go. The objective now is to have the carts in place by next spring. But first there needs to be an amendment to the city's capital budget. Then the city borrows $700,000 to buy the carts. Then the carts need to be designed, meaning -- in true Soviet fashion -- that one cart must fit all, whether it's cooking pizzas, flipping burgers, tossing noodle dishes, heating up chicken balls or cooling fresh juice.
The initial design, just released, looks particularly inflexible, and certainly would be a hard place to be keep food warm and the owner from freezing to death in winter.
Then there's the political issue of who gets the carts. One cart per person, says Mr. Filion, so as to avoid "any of those cart conglomerates that exist in New York City." The carts themselves are to be owned as public/non-profit assets, directly or indirectly, then leased.
The plan, prepared by city staff, complete with funding calculations and five-year payback mumbo jumbo, was signed off by Joe Pennachette, deputy city manger and chief financial officer. In person, he seems like such a sensible man. The plan includes the usual hypothetical projections on revenues and expenses per vending cart -- as if the city's planners can have any possible knowledge of what's involved in running a streetfood cart.
Toronto is crawling with culinary genius, upscale and down-market producers of fabulous food for all tastes. It has a world-famous food service college. Maybe thousands of people with skill and imagination are itching to start up a new food business, even a chain, based on the corner vending system. What does it matter if conglomerates are formed?
And what's wrong with just letting entrepreneurs develop their own designs? By setting up a city-controlled business, on top of the licensing controls, Toronto risks turning the great food-cart market revolution into another policy planning disaster.
But this is typical Toronto city activity, the work of idea butchers and fool makers. The vending cart is a micro version of another great idea, the revitalization of historic Union Station.
It must be 20 years now since they started talking about doing something with the station. Nothing happens because city officials -- obsessed with preventing private enterprise -- cannot let go, cannot stop their meddling, controlling and destructive ways.
As it looks now, Toronto's new street-food vision will not happen, certainly not by next spring. It should be happening right now.
************************************
Corcoran: Toronto street-food project half-baked at best
Terence Corcoran, National Post
Published: Friday, November 23, 2007
TORONTO -Toronto, idea butcher for the world. City of crumbling infrastructure, nutbar politicians and an ongoing fiscal crisis, has another attribute too seldom recognized. City officials have a singular ability to take damn good ideas and turn them into really dumb politicized nightmares.
The latest damn good idea was to open the city's street-corner food carts, now monopolized by hot dog merchants, to the four culinary corners of the world. The tantalizing image, full of free-market potential, was that of an urban foodscape of colourful stands selling the world's culture to go: samosas and pizza, fresh fruit, jerk chicken, tofu dishes, Singapore noodles and, who knows, maybe a Parisian crepe or two.
Making this street-food bonanza possible was a provincial regulatory change removing prohibitions that limited street vendor options to, approximately, hot dogs, hot dogs and veggie dogs, washed down with a Pepsi.
The hot dogs are among the best in the world, in my opinion, toasted and grilled, and way better than the steamed mushy things available in New York. Still, a modern multicultural city like Toronto needs variety, change, all the things deregulated free enterprise can bring.
Then came the really dumb political idea. The regulation opening up the Toronto vending-cart market has been in place since last August. But no vendors have appeared. Toronto streets remain samosa-free -- thanks to City Hall, which has put the whole idea on hold while officials develop the "Toronto Street Food Project Plan."
John Filion, city council member from Ward 23, in outer Willowdale, and chairman of the city's board of health, has a plan. He wants to set up a city-owned vending cart cartel, with the city buying carts and leasing 30 of them to vendors.
The tentacles of planning, once in control, never let go. The objective now is to have the carts in place by next spring. But first there needs to be an amendment to the city's capital budget. Then the city borrows $700,000 to buy the carts. Then the carts need to be designed, meaning -- in true Soviet fashion -- that one cart must fit all, whether it's cooking pizzas, flipping burgers, tossing noodle dishes, heating up chicken balls or cooling fresh juice.
The initial design, just released, looks particularly inflexible, and certainly would be a hard place to be keep food warm and the owner from freezing to death in winter.
Then there's the political issue of who gets the carts. One cart per person, says Mr. Filion, so as to avoid "any of those cart conglomerates that exist in New York City." The carts themselves are to be owned as public/non-profit assets, directly or indirectly, then leased.
The plan, prepared by city staff, complete with funding calculations and five-year payback mumbo jumbo, was signed off by Joe Pennachette, deputy city manger and chief financial officer. In person, he seems like such a sensible man. The plan includes the usual hypothetical projections on revenues and expenses per vending cart -- as if the city's planners can have any possible knowledge of what's involved in running a streetfood cart.
Toronto is crawling with culinary genius, upscale and down-market producers of fabulous food for all tastes. It has a world-famous food service college. Maybe thousands of people with skill and imagination are itching to start up a new food business, even a chain, based on the corner vending system. What does it matter if conglomerates are formed?
And what's wrong with just letting entrepreneurs develop their own designs? By setting up a city-controlled business, on top of the licensing controls, Toronto risks turning the great food-cart market revolution into another policy planning disaster.
But this is typical Toronto city activity, the work of idea butchers and fool makers. The vending cart is a micro version of another great idea, the revitalization of historic Union Station.
It must be 20 years now since they started talking about doing something with the station. Nothing happens because city officials -- obsessed with preventing private enterprise -- cannot let go, cannot stop their meddling, controlling and destructive ways.
As it looks now, Toronto's new street-food vision will not happen, certainly not by next spring. It should be happening right now.
AndreaPalladio
Senior Member
Oh. My. God. I agree the Terence Corcoran on something. Must...lie...down.
TrickyRicky
Senior Member
I also agree. How can you turn such a good idea into such a horrible even scary exercise? It's not even the money that matters it's the horrendous control structure and kafka-esque reasoning. Not even funny.
lordmandeep
Banned
really why must the city act like a national government...
H
Hydrogen
Guest
Except that the federal government does not run hot dog carts - because those dogs would be farkin' expensive.
Prometheus The Supremo
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http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/283557
Union Station hot dog vendor badly burned TheStar.com - GTA - Union Station hot dog vendor badly burned
December 07, 2007
Jeffrey Todd and Amy Fuller
Staff Reporters
A hot dog vendor is in fair condition in hospital with serious burns after catching fire in his tent outside Union station.
The accident happened around 7 a.m., near Front St. and Bay St., when the man fainted or lost consciousness and fell against the grill, causing his coat to ignite.
Acting Staff Sgt. Deborah Abbot of 52 Division police said the man fell either from fumes or exhaustion.
The man, who is in his early 60s, was rushed to St. Michael’s Hospital with second and third-degree burns to nine per cent of his body, mainly to his back.
Sgt. Craig Lewers said there was no indication of criminal involvement in the incident.
------------------------------------------------
on city news they said that one of the tanks exploded
Union Station hot dog vendor badly burned TheStar.com - GTA - Union Station hot dog vendor badly burned
December 07, 2007
Jeffrey Todd and Amy Fuller
Staff Reporters
A hot dog vendor is in fair condition in hospital with serious burns after catching fire in his tent outside Union station.
The accident happened around 7 a.m., near Front St. and Bay St., when the man fainted or lost consciousness and fell against the grill, causing his coat to ignite.
Acting Staff Sgt. Deborah Abbot of 52 Division police said the man fell either from fumes or exhaustion.
The man, who is in his early 60s, was rushed to St. Michael’s Hospital with second and third-degree burns to nine per cent of his body, mainly to his back.
Sgt. Craig Lewers said there was no indication of criminal involvement in the incident.
------------------------------------------------
on city news they said that one of the tanks exploded
CDL.TO
Moderator
On Classical 96.3 they said that he fell asleep and rested against a propane space heater.
junction_parents
Active Member
Toronto Food Carts; what would you like them to serve?
I rarely buy sausages/hot dogs, I can only imagine what undesirable parts of an animal are included in this "food".. I'd like to see grilled veggies (actual chopped veggies like sweet peppers and eggplant) on a bun and veggie sushi.
http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2007/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-8926.pdf
http://www.toronto.ca/health/he/hd_index.htm
I rarely buy sausages/hot dogs, I can only imagine what undesirable parts of an animal are included in this "food".. I'd like to see grilled veggies (actual chopped veggies like sweet peppers and eggplant) on a bun and veggie sushi.
http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2007/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-8926.pdf
http://www.toronto.ca/health/he/hd_index.htm
egotrippin
Senior Member
Haha grilled veggies, that's cute. Toronto street meat is awesome.
But seriously, variety would be nice. Some stuff like Philadelphia has; cheese steaks, hoagies and other heart attack-inducing sandwiches. Save the veggies food for the trendy little health cafes. Some of those amazing soft pretzel stands would be great as well. I remember getting some great ones from a vendor in NYC, it's such a great grab and go snack.
As far as I know, isn't there an actual by-law causing the hot dog/sausage restrictions? If so they need to ditch it; our street food should reflect our varied culture and people. Extreme variety, it's what North America is all about. edit. I just read the link, and yes Toronto surely does have overly strict control over what's served on the carts.
But seriously, variety would be nice. Some stuff like Philadelphia has; cheese steaks, hoagies and other heart attack-inducing sandwiches. Save the veggies food for the trendy little health cafes. Some of those amazing soft pretzel stands would be great as well. I remember getting some great ones from a vendor in NYC, it's such a great grab and go snack.
As far as I know, isn't there an actual by-law causing the hot dog/sausage restrictions? If so they need to ditch it; our street food should reflect our varied culture and people. Extreme variety, it's what North America is all about. edit. I just read the link, and yes Toronto surely does have overly strict control over what's served on the carts.
junction_parents
Active Member
our street food should reflect our varied culture and people. Extreme variety, it's what North America is all about
I completely agree with you, I'm still scared to touch the street meat though, I'm not vegetarian
I completely agree with you, I'm still scared to touch the street meat though, I'm not vegetarian