Toronto Spadina Subway Extension Emergency Exits | ?m | 1s | TTC | IBI Group

[Markster]

So that talk of removing buses from campus? That's not going to happen now?

That talk of removing all buses from campus never had a detailed implementation plan, and so could be called aspirational at best.

In practice, a lot of buses are being removed from campus, and the routes the remaining ones take are being streamlined.

 

[Megaton327]

That being said, if an agreement can be reached, let me just say, I am a mature student of civil engineering at Ryerson, and I generally use the GO Train from Malton Station (I'm from Brampton), if York U students can get a free subway shuttle, why can't Ryerson or U of Toronto students get the same treatment? Indeed, I generally walk the distance of the PATH once at Union (I got no idea what a U of T student does on the other hand), but all I'm saying, if York U students get this special treatment, so should Ryerson and U of T students.

It's not special treatment, you're equating radically different situations.

Today, and for the past MANY years, York U students have been able to take GO, YRT/Viva, and Brampton/ZUM buses directly into the heart of campus, just paying the fare for their transit agency. One bus has taken them all the way on one fare.

Now, many of those buses will be cut back not to service York U anymore, because of the subway extension being built. The subway is allegedly an improvement to transit service, to encourage more people to take transit and make trips more efficient.

But, if the fare agreement is not in effect, students--who generally aren't wealthy, to say the least--will suddenly face, roughly, a doubling of their transit expenditures, which might make it more economical for some of them to start driving instead of transit, and might make it impossible for others to continue attending York if they cannot afford an extra ~$1500 a year. And this is really an insult, seeing as today they are able to get to campus on one fare, but a supposed "improvement", funded with their tax dollars, would lengthen their trips and cost them $1500/year.

It should be obvious why this is unreasonable. If they pay $3.00 on December 30th 2017, they should not have to pay $6.00 on December 31st 2017 (assuming the subway opens then) for the luxury of an added transfer and a potentially longer travel time, which they already funded through their taxes.

Ryerson and U of T students have never been able to take a YRT, Brampton, or GO bus directly to campus as none of those agencies operate service into downtown Toronto. This is not a new situation. They did not go into their studies with that in place.

 

[christiesplits]

I wonder what impact the subway extension will have on York enrollment? Growing up in East York, I knew of very few people who made the trip to the Keele campus, as most attended U of T or Ryerson. A quicker commute could make York more appealing for students in East York, Scarborough and the old city limits.

 

[LNahid2000]

As for Downsview Park station.....beautiful on the inside, but man, I think we all know that this stop is destined now to become the new Bessarion or Ellesmere, this stop doesn't presently serve a substantial purpose and probably never will (even if the Barrie Line gets that all day service)

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2011/06/29/omb_approves_10000unit_plan_for_downsview_lands.html

 

[TOareaFan]

I wonder what impact the subway extension will have on York enrollment? Growing up in East York, I knew of very few people who made the trip to the Keele campus, as most attended U of T or Ryerson. A quicker commute could make York more appealing for students in East York, Scarborough and the old city limits.

Maybe....but I don't think York is struggling to attract students as it is....isn't it one of the top 5 (maybe top 3?) schools in the country in terms of undergrad enrollment?

 

[amnesiajune]

At this point, there is no concrete solution on the "York University Problem" as I like to call it? I mean, I remember reading before that York U GO bus users taking the 407 buses will get off the GO Bus at 407 station, and be able to use the subway for free provided they are headed to York U.

This isn't finalized yet, but in theory it's supposed to happen. Probably just needs more negotiations between YRT, Brampton Transit, Metrolinx and the TTC.

That being said, if an agreement can be reached, let me just say, I am a mature student of civil engineering at Ryerson, and I generally use the GO Train from Malton Station (I'm from Brampton), if York U students can get a free subway shuttle, why can't Ryerson or U of Toronto students get the same treatment?

Those two schools are in the heart of Toronto. York University's Keele Campus isn't, and a lot of its students depend on non-TTC transit service to get to a campus that's on the edge of the city.

 

[amnesiajune]

As for Downsview Park station.....beautiful on the inside, but man, I think we all know that this stop is destined now to become the new Bessarion or Ellesmere, this stop doesn't presently serve a substantial purpose and probably never will (even if the Barrie Line gets that all day service)

Downsview Park is a station that will be wildly successful if the TTC and Go Transit can finally become one transit system within Toronto. People downtown could take a Go Train to Downsview and the subway from there to York University, or Yorkdale. People in Vaughan could take the subway to Downsview and the train into downtown. People from farther north could take the train to Downsview and the subway to places like Queen's Park, U of T, Bloor-Yonge, St. Clair West, etc.

This would also have some huge positive implications for people travelling between downtown and Scarborough, or to/from Dundas West, Mount Dennis and North Etobicoke.

 

[Steve X]

Downsview Park is a station that will be wildly successful if the TTC and Go Transit can finally become one transit system within Toronto. People downtown could take a Go Train to Downsview and the subway from there to York University, or Yorkdale. People in Vaughan could take the subway to Downsview and the train into downtown. People from farther north could take the train to Downsview and the subway to places like Queen's Park, U of T, Bloor-Yonge, St. Clair West, etc.

This would also have some huge positive implications for people travelling between downtown and Scarborough, or to/from Dundas West, Mount Dennis and North Etobicoke.

They just need a cooperation like the S-Bahn and U-Bahn in Berlin. They are separate systems by different operators but they accept the same fares. Here, we can't even get a discount. No one is willing to subsidize the free transfers.

 

[TOareaFan]

Downsview Park is a station that will be wildly successful if the TTC and Go Transit can finally become one transit system within Toronto. People downtown could take a Go Train to Downsview and the subway from there to York University, or Yorkdale. People in Vaughan could take the subway to Downsview and the train into downtown. People from farther north could take the train to Downsview and the subway to places like Queen's Park, U of T, Bloor-Yonge, St. Clair West, etc.

This would also have some huge positive implications for people travelling between downtown and Scarborough, or to/from Dundas West, Mount Dennis and North Etobicoke.

I am all for greater system integration and do think we need more stations where the systems integrate....but 2 of the three examples you gave are just not going to happen all that often at this station. Your really think that someone downtown will head to union to take a GO train to Downsview to switch to the subway to go to York or Yorkdale when they could have just gotten on the subway in the first place? Or someone from Vaughan will take the subway to Downsview, get off the subway hoping to time with a train that will take them downtown...when they could just stay on the subway? The third one might have some use as, depending on the non-union destination, it may make more sense to get off and switch to the subway as opposed to going all the way DT to union then backing up to midtown via subway.

 

[amnesiajune]

Your really think that someone downtown will head to union to take a GO train to Downsview to switch to the subway to go to York or Yorkdale when they could have just gotten on the subway in the first place?

If they're close to Union, I'm sure they will. And a lot of people at Bloor, Eglinton, and potentially the Spadina/Liberty Village proposed stations will do so too.

 

[TOareaFan]

If they're close to Union, I'm sure they will.

I am sure I wouldn't....my office is by St Andrew station....casual walk ~5 minutes to Union....leave, what, 5 minutes connection time to catch train....for a 20 minute GO ride ..miss it and I wait how long?....then to transfer to a subway to get to my destination

Or walk into subway, and take, what, a 35 minute no hassle no transfer subway ride to York (less to Yorkdale).

And a lot of people at Bloor, Eglinton, and potentially the Spadina/Liberty Village proposed stations will do so too.

Maybe the Spadina/Liberty folks (they would already be in the GO part of Union station anyway and that might be an easier/more logical transfer)....but someone at Bloor is going to go back south to Union to catch a train to go north to then switch to the subway again to go to Yorkdale? I do not hate transfers...if they are logical....but this baffles me.

 

[Megaton327]

Downsview Park is a station that will be wildly successful if the TTC and Go Transit can finally become one transit system within Toronto. People downtown could take a Go Train to Downsview and the subway from there to York University, or Yorkdale. People in Vaughan could take the subway to Downsview and the train into downtown. People from farther north could take the train to Downsview and the subway to places like Queen's Park, U of T, Bloor-Yonge, St. Clair West, etc.

This would also have some huge positive implications for people travelling between downtown and Scarborough, or to/from Dundas West, Mount Dennis and North Etobicoke.

I am all for greater system integration and do think we need more stations where the systems integrate....but 2 of the three examples you gave are just not going to happen all that often at this station. Your really think that someone downtown will head to union to take a GO train to Downsview to switch to the subway to go to York or Yorkdale when they could have just gotten on the subway in the first place? Or someone from Vaughan will take the subway to Downsview, get off the subway hoping to time with a train that will take them downtown...when they could just stay on the subway? The third one might have some use as, depending on the non-union destination, it may make more sense to get off and switch to the subway as opposed to going all the way DT to union then backing up to midtown via subway.

I think the overall idea has merit--as someone living in Aurora who often has business in the northwestern portions of Line 1, I certainly look forward to getting off GO at Downsview Park and taking the subway to York U, Yorkdale, St Clair W, St George, and even Queen's Park rather than backtracking from Union. That's a great usage case for this--I think U of T students who live on the Barrie line will certainly benefit, St George is a good distance from Union, that's a painful backtrack to make twice a day if you're a GO rider. Lansdowne will improve this even further for destinations on Bloor-Danforth, and if the Sheppard subway were to be connected from Sheppard West (or even Downsview Park) to Sheppard-Yonge, this would connect the Barrie Line to the northern portion of Yonge as well.

However, I think we've done the guesswork on this in the past in this thread, and I don't see Downtown-York U/Yorkdale via Downsview Park GO, or Vaughan-Downtown via GO, making any sense. Firstly, originating from any downtown destination except for within a 5 minute walk of Union, I think we can all agree that just staying on the subway makes more sense. Assuming you're already in the GO portion of Union, e.g. you've just taken a Lakeshore train in and are heading to Yorkdale/York U, in that case transferring to a Barrie train makes sense assuming one is departing within 10-15 minutes.

Overall, though, the average wait for a GO train is quite a bit longer than for a subway (it will only become remotely comparable once RER is fully rolled out in a decade) and the trip to Downsview Park is not tremendously shorter considering the slow moving into/out of Union and near the Davenport Diamond pending completion of that grade separation. Plus, then you have to get down to the subway at Downsview Park and wait for a train there. Similarly, if you're already aboard a perfectly good train at VMC, with a seat, does it make sense to get off and take your chances with a GO Train? I've run the numbers and at best it comes out to a 5-10% trip time savings, but in most cases it's no better, or it's worse. Once there's 15-minute electric (fast acceleration/deceleration) RER, Union's switches have been improved to get trains through faster, the Davenport Diamond bridge is done, and there's full fare integration, it may become more appealing, but that's far off.

Definitely useful for Barrie Line riders heading to northern subway stations, though.

 

[kotsy]

They just need a cooperation like the S-Bahn and U-Bahn in Berlin. They are separate systems by different operators but they accept the same fares. Here, we can't even get a discount. No one is willing to subsidize the free transfers.

I had no idea they were different operators when I visited. Very cool.

 

[LNahid2000]

They just need a cooperation like the S-Bahn and U-Bahn in Berlin. They are separate systems by different operators but they accept the same fares. Here, we can't even get a discount. No one is willing to subsidize the free transfers.

What's even cooler is that their national trains (like VIA) are also integrated with S-Bahn and U-Bahn in Berlin. I took an Intercity train back to my hotel for fun since it doesn't cost anything extra as long as you stay in Berlin.

 

[TransitBart]

I think the overall idea has merit--as someone living in Aurora who often has business in the northwestern portions of Line 1, I certainly look forward to getting off GO at Downsview Park and taking the subway to York U, Yorkdale, St Clair W, St George, and even Queen's Park rather than backtracking from Union. That's a great usage case for this--I think U of T students who live on the Barrie line will certainly benefit, St George is a good distance from Union, that's a painful backtrack to make twice a day if you're a GO rider. Lansdowne will improve this even further for destinations on Bloor-Danforth, and if the Sheppard subway were to be connected from Sheppard West (or even Downsview Park) to Sheppard-Yonge, this would connect the Barrie Line to the northern portion of Yonge as well.

Definitely useful for Barrie Line riders heading to northern subway stations, though.

I have a friend who travels Barrie Allendale to Union to Eglington (Yonge-Eglington) five days a week. There is more backtracking going on than I suspect many people know. This is the first meangful connection on any GO train line that does not force a commuter to Union first. That alone should boost Barrie line traffic. As @Megaton327 says, if there were then meaningful E/W connections Sheppard West eastbound on line 4 and Finch West to Finch, either or both would be game changers for the NETWORK.