Xray_Crystal_Junkie
Senior Member
Anyone? I can't seem to find any info on the TTC's website for this project.
Toronto Spadina Subway Extension Emergency Exits | ?m | 1s | TTC | IBI Group
- Thread starter 299 bloor call control.
- Start date
Anyone? I can't seem to find any info on the TTC's website for this project.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
the TBM's will be scrapped after the project from my understanding. the TBMs being used on the ECLRT are different because of the wider tunnel bore required to fit the pantographs.
rbt
Senior Member
No buyers in Russia this time?
It's unfortunate as only about 1/10th of their lifespan will have been used (TBM's get a lifetime run of about 30km).
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Unfortunately, TBM's are like the brake pads on a car. They get worn out over time, as they scrap through the ground. They may have white paint on them now, but at the end it will be nothing but worn out metal.
Xray_Crystal_Junkie
Senior Member
I find it hard to believe they are only viable for the exact amount of tunnel we're digging for this extension. Of course they need maintenance, but worthless afterwards? That's transit planning for you.
"Hey, we should build a Spadina Subway extension."
"Excellent idea Johnson, lets spend $58.4 million on the TBMs which we'll scrap afterwards because we'll never dig tunnels again in Toronto."
... Several years later:
"The Spadina extension is coming along nicely, we should be finished tunneling soon. Maybe we could use them for the Eglinton Crosstown we're planning."
"No that won't work as we've decided to use LRT, even though we're burying the majority of the line, and they require larger tunnels."
"Ok guess we'll just put out another multi-million dollar contract for new TBMs, which we'll scrap afterwards because we'll never dig tunnels again in Toronto."
"Hey, we should build a Spadina Subway extension."
"Excellent idea Johnson, lets spend $58.4 million on the TBMs which we'll scrap afterwards because we'll never dig tunnels again in Toronto."
... Several years later:
"The Spadina extension is coming along nicely, we should be finished tunneling soon. Maybe we could use them for the Eglinton Crosstown we're planning."
"No that won't work as we've decided to use LRT, even though we're burying the majority of the line, and they require larger tunnels."
"Ok guess we'll just put out another multi-million dollar contract for new TBMs, which we'll scrap afterwards because we'll never dig tunnels again in Toronto."
nfitz
Superstar
Why would you save them for long though, if there's nothing being built. Surely you are better to sell them asap to recover any residual value, than build/use a storage facility for them, on the off-chance they'll be re-used.
Given that both the Yonge extension and the DRL seem to be coming quickly, I'd be tempted to save them for a bit to see which way the wind blows though ... presuming there is somewhere to keep them. This is what they did with the Sheppard TBMs before they disposed of them. Though saving them until now wouldn't have done them any good, as they are smaller than what was required for the Spadina extension, with the changing building code.
Transportfan
Senior Member
Xray_Crystal_Junkie
Senior Member
I realized that there are plenty of factors and restrictions to consider and saving the TBMs for future projects isn't just that simple but it seems foolish that we're buying and scrapping TMBs simultaneously. Was this a planning consideration when designing the Crosstown? I hope it was at least considered as there's potential to save 10s of millions in desperately needed transit funding.
And as you point out, the possibility of the DRL and Yonge extension (although I hope the latter doesn't happen) are on the horizon. I wouldn't be surprised if we ended up buying new TBMs for each of those projects as well.
And as you point out, the possibility of the DRL and Yonge extension (although I hope the latter doesn't happen) are on the horizon. I wouldn't be surprised if we ended up buying new TBMs for each of those projects as well.
nfitz
Superstar
The crosstown TBMs aren't the same diameter as the Spadina TBMs.
I doubt there's that much savings, once you account for the money you make from resale, storage costs, rehab costs, etc.
The TBMs aren't that expensive ... only about $15 million each, if the numbers quoted here are correct.
smallspy
Senior Member
rbt
Senior Member
They have a time limit too before every piece of rubber would need to be replaced.
A car that sits idle for 10 years between drives isn't going to run very well either.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
I wouldn't be surprised if they are indeed kept for the yonge extension and the DRL. When these finish up in 2015, we should know whether or not those other subway extensions will be happening.
As for the ECLRT, tunnelling begins this spring for it and the TBMs are being delivered as we speak so unless you can duplicate the TBMs, you would need new ones anyways.
As for the ECLRT, tunnelling begins this spring for it and the TBMs are being delivered as we speak so unless you can duplicate the TBMs, you would need new ones anyways.
nfitz
Superstar
Tunnellling finishes in 2013 I think. Two of the four TBMs are already (or almost) finished now.
rbt
Senior Member
It makes sense to store them from a short-term political standpoint.
While it is logically silly to argue that we should pump $8B into additional subway lines (DRL + Yonge) because $50M in TBMs are available; it is a good argument from an emotional standpoint.
I expect TBMs in storage and experienced work crews being available will be used to help sell additional transit funding. It's cheaper now, don't delay, etc.
They would be suitable for Yonge because it is fairly straight. The DRL will have curves on all axis (X, Y, and Z) which may require a larger bore hole at those curved points than the Spadina TBMs would create; I don't know but it's possible.
Yonge contracts for tunnelling could be tendered very quickly after funding is established as a quick win. It would be pretty slick politically to issue launch point and tunnel RFQ's on the same day that funding is approved.
Last edited:
If the Liberals are looking for seats in York Region come election time, being able to say "we will have construction underway on the North Yonge Subway extension within 6 months" would score a huge amount of political points, and may even get them a couple seats. It may just be a TBM launch shaft under construction by that point, but still.
If I were them, I'd also be hosting as many "open houses" as possible on the Spadina Extension around election time. Give the public a chance to see the almost-finished stations. Could be good PR. Also easy to say "this one project represents more KM of subway built than under the entire Harris/Eves government. Do we really want to go back to that?"