Admiral Beez
Superstar
IDK about municipal taxes and levies in NYC, but perhaps they don’t pay their line officers $100K plus benefits.
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Toronto Police Service Reformation
- Thread starter Admiral Beez
- Start date
lenaitch
Senior Member
According to a couple of online site, a top grade NYPD patrolman (patrolperson?) makes $85,292 which is roughly $121,145 Canadian. A first class Toronto constable makes $100,923. I didn't compare benefit because that would be fairly meaningless.
I realize that seeing US salaries in Canadian dollars lacks any kind of context but it seems they are paid comparatively well. There is a massive disparity of police salaries across the US. I have spoken to members of very small town departments whose entire departmental budget were less that a single constable's salary up here.
rbt
Senior Member
NYPD has a $5.5B budget and 38,000 officers + ~6000 civilians; ~125k USD per employee of spending. They might be spending on equipment/real-estate rather than salaries but it's not really any cheaper on a per-employee basis.
Toronto is about $136k CAD per employee (officers + civilians) in spending.
Jasmine18
Senior Member
I think the major issue is that we have largely defunded Mental Health Services and pretty much have delegated this task to the police.
The issue is the police are a quasi paramilitary-style system and then are required to have the empathy of a mental health and social worker.
These things will clash and it would take a very competent individual to fully balance both these elements at the same time at all times.
My point is that I do agree the police need more Mental Health Training and descalation training but frankly I think it's best that these issues are largely left in the hands of mental health workers.
The issue is the police are a quasi paramilitary-style system and then are required to have the empathy of a mental health and social worker.
These things will clash and it would take a very competent individual to fully balance both these elements at the same time at all times.
My point is that I do agree the police need more Mental Health Training and descalation training but frankly I think it's best that these issues are largely left in the hands of mental health workers.
jje1000
Senior Member
I’d like a dedicated psychiatrist/social worker attachment deployed alongside the police specifically for mental health calls IMO.
They’d be the ones to negotiate with the individual in crisis, with police providing support if things go south.
Add’t: The recent calls for the elimination of the police are lunacy. Very few surveys even in minority neighborhoods show support for the elimination of the police, but rather its improvement and reform.
They’d be the ones to negotiate with the individual in crisis, with police providing support if things go south.
Add’t: The recent calls for the elimination of the police are lunacy. Very few surveys even in minority neighborhoods show support for the elimination of the police, but rather its improvement and reform.
Northern Light
Superstar
Northern Light
Superstar
I went on a rant about police violence issues in the Donald Trump thread.
For those interested, please have a look.
urbantoronto.ca
I'll skip a repost of that............and say the following.
Most of us here acknowledge the need for reforms.
Most of us feel there is too much readiness to shoot or kill or beat/injure.
While we can generally agree the U.S. situation is worse; the Canadian one is far from satisfactory.
I would encourage everyone here to be active on this file and fine specific ideas you can get behind.
I heartily endorse the notion that mental health issues should be dealt with by mental health professionals, not police.
Police can act in a supporting role, if asked to.
That would help.
But we must do more.
I would offer the following for consideration.
1)We need to stop over-policing of people based on the colour of their skin.
To do so, I would prohibit all 'random' traffic stops.
An officer wishing to pull someone over, needs to have a dash cam turned on; and needs to enter legally valid, substantive reason for a stop, which should not be a hunch or a suspicion.
2) I would also suggest a strong move towards decriminalization of personal drug use/possession. A matter that is inherently a public health/mental health matter should not be dealt with under the criminal law.
3) We need to seriously consider removing body-worn guns from the uniform. I have no desire to endanger police. But I note that London, UK does not give most of its officers access to a gun in routine circumstances.
Typically, they are restricted to highly trained, senior officers.
Iceland has guns in a gun safe in the trunk of the police cruiser.
If an officer feels the need to access it, they phone in, and get the code for the safe.
4) Finally, we need to amend Basic Training. Not only putting greater emphasis on de-escalation; but I think also re-evaluating teaching around 'controlling' a situation with 'managing' one.
I don't pretend these are definitive answers.
Some many need major refinement.
But we really must get on with doing something about this issue.
For those interested, please have a look.
Former President Donald Trump's United States of America
Trump went from freedom fighter to authoritarian in about a week Analysis by Zachary B. Wolf, CNN Updated 12:14 AM ET, Tue June 2, 2020 https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/02/politics/what-matters-june-1/index.html Trump's made-for-TV strongman act threatens American traditions Analysis by Stephen...
I'll skip a repost of that............and say the following.
Most of us here acknowledge the need for reforms.
Most of us feel there is too much readiness to shoot or kill or beat/injure.
While we can generally agree the U.S. situation is worse; the Canadian one is far from satisfactory.
I would encourage everyone here to be active on this file and fine specific ideas you can get behind.
I heartily endorse the notion that mental health issues should be dealt with by mental health professionals, not police.
Police can act in a supporting role, if asked to.
That would help.
But we must do more.
I would offer the following for consideration.
1)We need to stop over-policing of people based on the colour of their skin.
To do so, I would prohibit all 'random' traffic stops.
An officer wishing to pull someone over, needs to have a dash cam turned on; and needs to enter legally valid, substantive reason for a stop, which should not be a hunch or a suspicion.
2) I would also suggest a strong move towards decriminalization of personal drug use/possession. A matter that is inherently a public health/mental health matter should not be dealt with under the criminal law.
3) We need to seriously consider removing body-worn guns from the uniform. I have no desire to endanger police. But I note that London, UK does not give most of its officers access to a gun in routine circumstances.
Typically, they are restricted to highly trained, senior officers.
Iceland has guns in a gun safe in the trunk of the police cruiser.
If an officer feels the need to access it, they phone in, and get the code for the safe.
4) Finally, we need to amend Basic Training. Not only putting greater emphasis on de-escalation; but I think also re-evaluating teaching around 'controlling' a situation with 'managing' one.
I don't pretend these are definitive answers.
Some many need major refinement.
But we really must get on with doing something about this issue.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
We should take the firearms away from most officers - and have them walk the beat. Also prioritize hiring from individuals living in the same municipality.
AoD
AoD
Jasmine18
Senior Member
well 100% that cant work in the USA in a county of 300 mill guns...
In Toronto, I dont think that can work either as gun crimes are still a big issue.
Until guns largely vanish from the city, then we can have a serious discussion around disarming police officers.
The issue is that personally i would feel less safe if cops did not have guns in Toronto but to you and others you feel safer. So it would be a highly divisive issue.
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AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Sorry, your precondition is not necessary - how many examples can you cite where guns were actually used successfully as a deterrent against gun crimes - against that vast array of interactions that doesn't require the use of weapons, much less guns?
AoD
Admiral Beez
Superstar
I don’t see why the police are needed at all for these metal distress calls. If someone is in medical distress, physical or mental, it should be solely an ambulance with a mental health specialist that arrives. Upon arrival, if the ambulatory crew deem they need police, they can call them, same as if there’s a fire and TFD upon arrival find a crime scene.
With ‘bangers shooting up the city, I’d like the good guys to be equally armed. Removing the police, or having a health worker lead the intervention for a mental health event should reduce the number of SIU-justified yet preventable police shootings. That said, I would like us to demilitarize the police..... revert to light blue uniforms from black, proper hats instead of ball caps, and light blue and white cars, not the black stealth look.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Police having guns didn't deter the bangers did it? This problem won't be solved or even stopped by arming the police en masse. Some armed officers are obviously necessary in any system, but all of them?
AoD
Jasmine18
Senior Member
The chance of disarming the police in a city with a gun crime issue is less than zero.
Let's focus on actual police reform that can get broad support.
As admiral pointed out there is no rampage of cops killing people like George was killed in Toronto or shooting unarmed people.
It is cases of mental health calls being badly handled.
Let's focus on actual police reform that can get broad support.
As admiral pointed out there is no rampage of cops killing people like George was killed in Toronto or shooting unarmed people.
It is cases of mental health calls being badly handled.
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AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Nonsense. You can't think about actual police reform without reconsidering how you do policing. Broad support is lip syncing status-quo.
AoD
Admiral Beez
Superstar
IDK that, disarming the police may embolden the bangers and other violent criminals. Toronto is not Minneapolis, Chicago or other US cities, we don’t have a widespread problem with police shooting unarmed people, and when it does happen we have a justifiable uproar about it. What we need is to remove the police from being the primary responder to mental health events, same as they’re not the primary responder to fire or medical health events.