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Toronto Police Service Reformation

Northern Light

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80-100 murders in a city of nearly 3 million isn't a problem. When you factor out the gangsta-on-gangsta killings and statistical aberrations like the 10 killed in the van attack; to the regular, law-abiding Torontonian, this city does not have a murder problem. If you're not involved in gangs, drugs or violent crime, your only remotely likely risk of being murdered is through domestic violence (by your spouse, partner, parent, etc).

And, provided no bystanders are killed, do we really care if the gangstas kill each other? And as for the police, their job is not crime prevention, it's enforcement. It's the justice system, not the police that is failing Torontonians, by releasing the violent gang members after each arrest. How can witnesses safely give testimony to police when they know the perp. will be out shortly looking for revenge? Anyone convicted of a gun crime should do hard time and anyone not born here (like me, arrived at age 5) should have their citizenship or landed status revoked and be deported.
While I think your first paragraph is substantially accurate, I do take some issue with the second.

First off, yes I do care if gang members try to kill each other, if for no other reason that the attempts invariably do endanger innocent by-standers in a large number of cases.

Beyond that, even complete jackasses and criminals are somebody's kid, often somebody's parent, sibling and lover. That in no way excuses their behavior, nor reduces the need for arrest, and incarceration in these cases.

It does, however, mean that one shouldn't trivialize the value of their lives; that after all is the very sin of which they themselves are guilty.

It also lacks the virtue of nuance, and recognizing that not all are gang members identical, and their circumstances will vary.

Finally, this notion of citizenship revocation really has to go. Citizenship is not something to be granted frivolously, and stripping someone of it should never be automatic or easy.

It fails, among other things, to account for the fact said party may no longer be a citizen of their country of origin, and said country may have no legal obligation to repatriate them.

Let's keep things reasonable in substance and tone.
 
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Admiral Beez

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Finally, this notion of citizenship revocation really has to go. Citizenship is not something to be granted frivolously, and stripping someone of it should never be automatic or easy.
I disagree. If I go into the Eaton Centre and start shooting up the Food Court and kill people, or drive a van down Yonge St. murdering nearly a dozen folks, I'd say the State is well within its rights to strip me of my Canadian citizenship and after my prison term send me back on the first plane to the UK. It doesn't matter that I came to Canada as a near toddler and that I may blame Canadian society for raising me into the violent thug I've become - I'm not of these shores, so send me home.

But not everyone will share that view, and my motive is to remove these guys from our streets. If the Canadian justice system would do that, I think our gun violence issue in Toronto would be reduced.
 

Northern Light

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I disagree. If I go into the Eaton Centre and start shooting up the Food Court and kill people, or drive a van down Yonge St. murdering nearly a dozen folks, I'd say the State is well within its rights to strip me of my Canadian citizenship and after my prison term send me back on the first plane to the UK. It doesn't matter that I came to Canada as a near toddler and that I may blame Canadian society for raising me into the violent thug I've become - I'm not of these shores, so send me home.

But not everyone will share that view, and my motive is to remove these guys from our streets. If the Canadian justice system would do that, I think our gun violence issue in Toronto would be reduced.
What if the UK wouldn't take you?

What if your citizenship there had been renounced or removed by you, your parents or the UK?

Also, if you were here from the age of 5, I'm not sure why anyone would believe you were the UK's problem. You would be a problem no doubt, but our problem.
 

Admiral Beez

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What if....What if....Also, if
That's a lot of what ifs. I wonder if there's an equivalent to whataboutism for what ifs. Anyway, I didn't intend to derail or threadjack this into an citizenship and immigration debate, so I'll stand down and comment no further on this.

My only motive is to get the bad guys off the street and keep them off for as long as reasonably possible. If our justice system will do this, then the Toronto police portion of the process, that of feeding the justice system with criminals for processing would work better. As it stands now, TPS can arrest a guy for gang crimes, and he's out on bail within days, or if convicted back on the street in a year, looking to settle scores with the snitches that put him away.
 

BurlOak

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That's a lot of what ifs. I wonder if there's an equivalent to whataboutism for what ifs. Anyway, I didn't intend to derail or threadjack this into an citizenship and immigration debate, so I'll stand down and comment no further on this.

My only motive is to get the bad guys off the street and keep them off for as long as reasonably possible. If our justice system will do this, then the Toronto police portion of the process, that of feeding the justice system with criminals for processing would work better. As it stands now, TPS can arrest a guy for gang crimes, and he's out on bail within days, or if convicted back on the street in a year, looking to settle scores with the snitches that put him away.
Harper's entire tenure was about getting "the bad guys off the street and keep them off for as long as reasonably possible ".
In 2015, we had an election and Canadians voted against this philosophy.
Homicides go up by 40% in Toronto.
It seems your motivation (get bad guys off the street) does not align with that of other Torontonians.
 

Admiral Beez

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Harper's entire tenure was about getting "the bad guys off the street and keep them off for as long as reasonably possible ".
I voted against Harper, like many Canadians. I did not support his ideas on mandatory minimums. Our judges need discretion and reasonable leeway. But there has to be a middle ground between mandatory minimums and a revolving door. IDK what that looks like.

As a side note, had I known that Trump was going to win the White House I would have voted for Harper. IMO, Harper would have been a better PM to navigate the Trump relationship and NAFTA. But as they say on the River Bank, that's another story.
 

Northern Light

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I voted against Harper, like many Canadians. I did not support his ideas on mandatory minimums. Our judges need discretion and reasonable leeway. But there has to be a middle ground between mandatory minimums and a revolving door. IDK what that looks like.

As a side note, had I known that Trump was going to win the White House I would have voted for Harper. IMO, Harper would have been a better PM to navigate the Trump relationship and NAFTA. But as they say on the River Bank, that's another story.
Harper's entire tenure was about getting "the bad guys off the street and keep them off for as long as reasonably possible ".
In 2015, we had an election and Canadians voted against this philosophy.
Homicides go up by 40% in Toronto.
It seems your motivation (get bad guys off the street) does not align with that of other Torontonians.
Just stop.

Its possible to be conservative-leaning and say intelligent things.

I would refer you to Keithz among other posters.

There was no referendum on prison sentences.

There was an election which considers a panoply of polices on foreign affairs, finance, social programs, the environment, work/life balance, first nations issues, energy etc. etc.

Further more, most of Harper's Mandatory minimum's were struck down by the courts. Not voters. They were an unconstitutional overreach.

Beyond that, what's your logic to low crime numbers pre-Harper, pre mandatory minimums?

Right, you don't have any.

Put thought into your posts. I hate to have my time wasted. You're capable of contributing to the discussion in a positive way. This is not that.
 
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BurlOak

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I voted against Harper, like many Canadians. I did not support his ideas on mandatory minimums. Our judges need discretion and reasonable leeway. But there has to be a middle ground between mandatory minimums and a revolving door. IDK what that looks like.
What is the other way.?
What options were on the table for Harper - either mandatory minimums or continue with way our sentencing has gone in the past decades. Within 1 previous PM, we went from death penalty to life in prison to 25 years to mandatory parole. Judges and sentencing was spiraling out of control and Harper's actions were the only way of reversing the trend.

Speaking of mandatory minimums,
Tougher penalties for impaired driving come into effect this month
Refusing to take a roadside breathalyzer test will result in a mandatory fine of $2,000 upon conviction

It seems the current government still believes in them.
 

Admiral Beez

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What is the other way.?
What options were on the table for Harper - either mandatory minimums or continue with way our sentencing has gone in the past decades. Within 1 previous PM, we went from death penalty to life in prison to 25 years to mandatory parole. Judges and sentencing was spiraling out of control and Harper's actions were the only way of reversing the trend.
It's a good question, on the other way. IDK. But I don't like the idea of mandatory minimums as there are scores of examples in the USA where people are given massive sentences for what the specifics of the case suggest should be a lighter rehabilitative sentence. On the other hand, we see folks like one of Tory Stafford's killers moved to a healing lodge, and the serial killer nurse moved to one of the lowest security women's prison we have. Almost everyone gets out eventually, so I want to rehabilitate those we can, but there has to be a balance, if only for the public perception of justice.

Perhaps for Canada, we need to, in concert with, as opposed to against, our top jurists re-write our justice system to simply keep the public safer. Keep violent criminals away longer or until they can be deemed a reduced threat to the rest of us. And allow reasonable charter-testing policies like refusing TCHC residency for criminals.
Good. No one should be driving impaired. It's amazing this is still a thing, so obviously there are a hard core group that need to be hit hard.
 

BurlOak

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It's a good question, on the other way. IDK. But I don't like the idea of mandatory minimums as there are scores of examples in the USA where people are given massive sentences for what the specifics of the case suggest should be a lighter rehabilitative sentence. On the other hand, we see folks like one of Tory Stafford's killers moved to a healing lodge, and the serial killer nurse moved to one of the lowest security women's prison we have. Almost everyone gets out eventually, so I want to rehabilitate those we can, but there has to be a balance, if only for the public perception of justice.
What's wrong with Tory Stafford's killers being moved to a healing lodge?
The system we have says that everything can be determined by judges and social workers.
The alternative is a system that has mandatory minimums set by politicians who take public views into account, but still allow the system some discretion.
Perhaps for Canada, we need to, in concert with, as opposed to against, our top jurists re-write our justice system to simply keep the public safer. Keep violent criminals away longer or until they can be deemed a reduced threat to the rest of us. And allow reasonable charter-testing policies like refusing TCHC residency for criminals. Good. No one should be driving impaired. It's amazing this is still a thing, so obviously there are a hard core group that need to be hit hard.
So that bring me back to my earlier point. We treat impaired driving as more serious than gun crimes or homicide.
A suspicious person can't be checked for guns, but any person can be stopped to check for impairment.
Impairment has a mandatory minimum, but gun crimes do not.
Actually, even being accused of impairment (not yet found guilty) has mandatory minimums.
Until homicide is treated more seriously, we can't expect the occurrences to reduce.
 

Northern Light

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Until homicide is treated more seriously, we can't expect the occurrences to reduce.
Uhhh, WTF?

Homicide does have mandatory minimums you know...........

To suggest its commission is not treated seriously by either police or the courts is to live in a fantasy world of one's own making.
 

Admiral Beez

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What's wrong with Tory Stafford's killers being moved to a healing lodge?
To me, everything, but I'm again steering us away from TPS reform, so I'll say no more.
So that bring me back to my earlier point. We treat impaired driving as more serious than gun crimes or homicide.
It's a good point, though I think homicide is treated more serious than impaired driving causing death. My wife's first cousin killed a person while driving drunk and he spent I think one year in prison, maybe less. Homicide would get you more than this I think.
 
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Admiral Beez

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