Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[aquateam]

I don't get why people here don't understand why the DRL won't be going to Seneca College, Bathurst, Dundas West or Hamilton anytime soon. We'll be lucky to get Osgoode to Don Mills in our lifetime. A lot of money just to build that. Yes it would be great to go further but we can't get everything all at once.

And its not bizarre reaching Sheppard first. Its the relief line after all. RELIEF OF THE YONGE LINE! Its not designed to get people to Seneca faster (even though it will do that). Its not designed to help people get around downtown (even though it will do that). Its designed to get people off the Yonge line and the best way to do that is to go to Don Mills. Rather simple.

A line along Queen has been planned since before the Yonge line even existed, let alone needed Relief. The DRL serves many more functions than just being a rush-hour relief valve for the Yonge line, including relieving/improving the King/Queen streetcars, providing service to the "shoulder areas" of downtown, supporting redevelopment of the portlands/waterfront, providing network redundancy, servicing high-density areas in the old city, anchoring a waterfront west and east LRT network, etc. If the only goal is to relieve Yonge, we might as well build an express subway 500m east of Yonge that follows the exact same route.

I am impressed to see the progress on this line, which was just a transit nerd's pipedream until fairly recently. But you're right, we should be impressed with all the money being provided just to produce what's in the works when the transit file didn't budge for 20 years from the 1980s to early 2000s.

 

[Edward Skira]

The relief line will certainly do more than relieve Yonge. But it wouldn't be in serious contemplation if it weren't for the Yonge crowding.

 

[gweed123]

I have no inside info its just a gut feeling. Why split the route into two different development groups if you don't intend to do something now. Why not just study the south portion and be done with it? My gut tells me the province sees it will be difficult to get it all done if the city is leading (would Crosstown be this far along if the city was in charge? I doubt it). I suspect the province expects the city to pay its fair share for the south portion and the province will pay for the north portion entirely. And it will be built all at once and it will be one subway line. Expect an announcement by Wynne (in Don Valley West?) before the next election. That's how I read it.

Splitting the project into what is in essence two different projects is certainly an interesting move. Then again, Metrolinx seems to be taking a similar approach with the RER works, splitting the massive pile of work into multiple, smaller projects that can be tendered separately, though will theoretically proceed at the same time.

I'm sure there will be something before the next election as some kind of "here's our next major project", similar to what the Liberals did with RER last election.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

Splitting the project into what is in essence two different projects is certainly an interesting move. Then again, Metrolinx seems to be taking a similar approach with the RER works, splitting the massive pile of work into multiple, smaller projects that can be tendered separately, though will theoretically proceed at the same time.

I'm sure there will be something before the next election as some kind of "here's our next major project", similar to what the Liberals did with RER last election.

I'm still not over how the south and north segments are delineated by Line 2, and not by the Don Valley.

 

[Hopkins123]

A line along Queen has been planned since before the Yonge line even existed, let alone needed Relief. The DRL serves many more functions than just being a rush-hour relief valve for the Yonge line, including relieving/improving the King/Queen streetcars, providing service to the "shoulder areas" of downtown, supporting redevelopment of the portlands/waterfront, providing network redundancy, servicing high-density areas in the old city, anchoring a waterfront west and east LRT network, etc. If the only goal is to relieve Yonge, we might as well build an express subway 500m east of Yonge that follows the exact same route.

I am impressed to see the progress on this line, which was just a transit nerd's pipedream until fairly recently. But you're right, we should be impressed with all the money being provided just to produce what's in the works when the transit file didn't budge for 20 years from the 1980s to early 2000s.

I know right. A Queen Street subway plan dates back to the 1910s. It's the marriage of the east-west subway with the north-south subway along Pape and Don Mills that's causing the contention. I get it that people are on edge because funding commitments and governments can change but we need to be practical and generous with what we are offering to the public. A Scarborough subway reaching to Sheppard East would also head off people coming from the east end prior to them reaching Yonge. Likewise improvements to the Stoufville and Richmond Hill GO corridors could stave off the necessity of extending the DRL north of Eglinton. The 25/185 Don Mills isn't even all that busy north of Lawrence.

There's simply no denying that the 510 Spadina today is overcapacity though. Ergo, any DRL stopping short of Spadina is not addressing a critical choke point in the network. Assuming the TBM extraction point is Trinity Bellwoods or the CAMH lands, we ought to suggest just adding another 3-4 stops west of Osgoode for the sake of alleviating the streetcar routes plus a developing, densely populated area of the city. Prioritizing a subway through an area we don't need as badly (DRL north of Eglinton) while neglecting the west end of downtown is poor planning.

 

[Rainforest]

I'd rather give priority to DRL East north of Eglinton, before it is extended west of Osgoode.

DRL East will have massive city-wide impact, the longer it gets the greater the impact. DRL West would be certainly useful, but to a relatively small area.

 

[ksun]

9 years later, we are still in the process of "talking". I am really impressed by people's patience.

at the same time, what happens between 2008-2016 eslewhere (the animation is interesting!)
https://qz.com/1010911/a-beautiful-...d-speed-of-development-of-chinas-rail-system/

 

[W. K. Lis]

Maybe instead of short-turning the 510 SPADINA at Adelaide Street West, Charlotte Street, and King Street West, they should extend it further east to serve the OSGOODE stations (plural). Maybe with an on-street loop at Simcoe Street (opposite curb lane direction on the one-way street) and then Richmond Street West (or Queen Street West) back to Spadina Avenue. Until they extend the Relief Line further west.

 

[gweed123]

I'm still not over how the south and north segments are delineated by Line 2, and not by the Don Valley.

I suspect because if that section was included in Phase I, there would be calls for "might as well just extend it to Eglinton". Terminating a phase at a perpendicular transit line makes sense, IMO. The delineation may only be logistical though, as it sounds like work on north-of-Danforth may proceed relatively concurrently with south-of-Danforth.

I'd rather give priority to DRL East north of Eglinton, before it is extended west of Osgoode.

DRL East will have massive city-wide impact, the longer it gets the greater the impact. DRL West would be certainly useful, but to a relatively small area.

Agreed. The western part of Toronto already has it's relief line. It's called the Spadina Subway. The King West area does definitely need relief, but there are plenty of surface ROW options that can be undertaken as an interim measure. No such options really exist on the northeastern DRL route, unless you want to run articulated buses down Don Mills/Pape every minute or so during rush hour.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

I suspect because if that section was included in Phase I, there would be calls for "might as well just extend it to Eglinton". Terminating a phase at a perpendicular transit line makes sense, IMO. The delineation may only be logistical though, as it sounds like work on north-of-Danforth may proceed relatively concurrently with south-of-Danforth.

That's a stupid reason and I doubt that's it. Easier to tell people 'we're going this far and no further because of the valley.'

Agreed. The western part of Toronto already has it's relief line. It's called the Spadina Subway. The King West area does definitely need relief, but there are plenty of surface ROW options that can be undertaken as an interim measure. No such options really exist on the northeastern DRL route, unless you want to run articulated buses down Don Mills/Pape every minute or so during rush hour.

I'd rather give priority to DRL East north of Eglinton, before it is extended west of Osgoode.

DRL East will have massive city-wide impact, the longer it gets the greater the impact. DRL West would be certainly useful, but to a relatively small area.

Another thing with DRL West is it will have quite a few intermodal connections that need to be figured out. Assuming it goes to Roncy and Dundas West:

• 511 at Bathurst
• GO Milton/Kitchener/Barrie at Dufferin
• 501/504/Lakeshore West LRT + GO Lakeshore West at Roncesvalles
• 506 at High Park
• Line 2 + GO Milton/Kitchener + UPX at Bloor

That makes for some complex station design and, if the city wants to do proper intermodal transfers, some costly work.

RL South(east)/North are bigger fish to fry. But I still am on the bandwagon for keeping the TBMs going west of University, even if station work is put off; I'm still a firm believer that, if you can find a better extraction shaft, the cost/benefit makes sense.

 

[crs1026]

Or better yet, politically the province need to be seen as bringing home the bacon for the competitive inner 416 burbs. You have already seen normally cautious politicos at the city level (e.g. DWM who is going to be running for the PCs in all likelihood) signing its' praises and jumping on the bandwagon.

AoD

The statement that struck me is

• The Yonge Subway Extension would generate more access
  
  
• The Relief Line would create more capacity
  
  
• Both projects need to advance in an integrated way

In other words, no thrust and parry between Toronto and York Councils. And no grandstanding and no divisive Ford-style "we've been screwed worse than Scarborough" politicking. You're all going to get what you want, OK? Now play nice and let's get it done.

This rising above the fray and imposing leadership is actually ML's proper reason to exist. And good leadership from the province. I'm even optimistic that the Province knows that its contribution to financing is a dealbreaker, and has a plan to address that. No doubt in a way that helps out at election time, and muzzles Tory or at least gives him more incentive to play along (and police his Council) than to be a troublemaker. Win-win for everybody.

- Paul

 

[Edward Skira]

RL South(east)/North are bigger fish to fry. But I still am on the bandwagon for keeping the TBMs going west of University, even if station work is put off; I'm still a firm believer that, if you can find a better extraction shaft, the cost/benefit makes sense.

If you have the money needed for them I'm sure they'll keep on moving west.

 

[Translude15]

Although there's no direct mention of the DRL, this announcement signifies an important precursor to any future DRL development and construction:

https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...n-to-clean-up-and-protect-the-port-lands.html

The funding will flood-proof the southeastern downtown area, making possible the long-sought after dream of transforming the polluted, industrial area into a mixed-use community surrounded by parks and green space.

Besides making the Portlands habitable and suitable for development, the flooding protection will allow the DRL plans to move forward by minimizing any flooding disruptions during construction and during its eventual day-to-day operations.

The provincial government's plan all along was to sort out the Don Valley floodplain issue first and foremost and allocate funding towards the project before moving on to funding the DRL. It's no coincidence that recent DRL plans have been released in conjunction with this floodplain funding announcement.

 

[Leo_Chan]

That's a stupid reason and I doubt that's it. Easier to tell people 'we're going this far and no further because of the valley.'



Another thing with DRL West is it will have quite a few intermodal connections that need to be figured out. Assuming it goes to Roncy and Dundas West:

• 511 at Bathurst
• GO Milton/Kitchener/Barrie at Dufferin
• 501/504/Lakeshore West LRT + GO Lakeshore West at Roncesvalles
• 506 at High Park
• Line 2 + GO Milton/Kitchener + UPX at Bloor

That makes for some complex station design and, if the city wants to do proper intermodal transfers, some costly work.

RL South(east)/North are bigger fish to fry. But I still am on the bandwagon for keeping the TBMs going west of University, even if station work is put off; I'm still a firm believer that, if you can find a better extraction shaft, the cost/benefit makes sense.

Ignoring the fact that running the TBMs farther cost more (extraction may be less), how much does it cost to maintain an empty tunnel for 5+ years?

 

[Rainforest]

Maybe instead of short-turning the 510 SPADINA at Adelaide Street West, Charlotte Street, and King Street West, they should extend it further east to serve the OSGOODE stations (plural). Maybe with an on-street loop at Simcoe Street (opposite curb lane direction on the one-way street) and then Richmond Street West (or Queen Street West) back to Spadina Avenue. Until they extend the Relief Line further west.

Sounds interesting. Perhaps this is a good interim solution.