Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

M II A II R II K said:
Would there even be space for a London Ooverground here unless you made GO only do express routes and the local stops are served by smaller trains.
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Toronto would be able to do it, to an extent, if the midtown corridor was ever freed up. But for all intents and purposes what you see in Paris for example would be a more suitable comparison for what RER truly is, compared to the Overground. The Overground doesn't operate based on a hub and spoke model, it's more of a point-to-point model the way the rail system is designed in London. The Overground is really a different beast, one which Toronto wouldn't really be able to replicate due to the way our rail corridor is structured.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
It would take 5 minutes on the bus to get to Gerrard Station from Pape/Danforth Avenue by bus. It would take longer from any other point on Danforth Avenue. Then people have to wait between 0 and 6 minutes for the train to come. (an average of 3 mins) And then they have to spend several more minutes getting out of Union GO Station. In that time, you could travel a large distance on the subway system.
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Conversely, it would get rid of a transfer at the dreaded Y&B station where one could wait much longer trying to get onto a packed subway to say nothing of the fact that taking Bloor to Yonge has several more stops. This would save far more time and aggravation that taking a bus for a few more blocks. By running RER/STC system that would mean that every single passenger coming in from Scarboro would be taking ST from either Kennedy or Scarboro station taking all those passengers going to Union/financial district off the Bloor and Yonge lines.

This is where Metrolinx should test Alstom's new Hydrail trains running back and forth from Weston/Union/Kennedy all day at subway frequencies. I bet Alstom would be more than pleased to offer or cheaply lease some of it's Hydrail trains to showcase to a big NA market which is where a big chunk of their market for Hydrail will come from.
 
ssiguy2 said:
Conversely, it would get rid of a transfer at the dreaded Y&B station where one could wait much longer trying to get onto a packed subway to say nothing of the fact that taking Bloor to Yonge has several more stops. This would save far more time and aggravation that taking a bus for a few more blocks. By running RER/STC system that would mean that every single passenger coming in from Scarboro would be taking ST from either Kennedy or Scarboro station taking all those passengers going to Union/financial district off the Bloor and Yonge lines.

This is where Metrolinx should test Alstom's new Hydrail trains running back and forth from Weston/Union/Kennedy all day at subway frequencies. I bet Alstom would be more than pleased to offer or cheaply lease some of it's Hydrail trains to showcase to a big NA market which is where a big chunk of their market for Hydrail will come from.
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Are you suggesting SmartTrack is ...... an effective solution? :eek:
 
Hopkins123 said:
Anything above and beyond the status quo is an effective solution, IMO.
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That’s one of Tory’s main arguments for ST and SSE - too long has this great city languished without transit construction, so we just have to build something. But we can’t afford to build just anything. We have to build the right thing.
 
I am not saying that the DRL is not needed but it's more than a decade away and Toronto needs relief right now. The TTC's recent "Black Tuesday" is proof of this and overcrowding is one thing but when people begin to think that the system is becoming unsafe then that's real trouble because that's what will make people avoid the system and take their cars.

RER/ST is the solution and one that can be very quickly implemented and even a base service can start right away by having all GO trains accept a standard TTC ticket between Bloor West to Kennedy via Union. It would take all those passengers west of Bloor West and all of Scarborough heading to Union/Financial District off the subway lines. The service could be made even better by allowing riders to take UPX free to BW and also have 2 GO trains running constantly between BW & Kennedy and back so frequency would be high especially in rush hour which is the biggest concern.
 
ssiguy2 said:
I am not saying that the DRL is not needed but it's more than a decade away and Toronto needs relief right now. The TTC's recent "Black Tuesday" is proof of this and overcrowding is one thing but when people begin to think that the system is becoming unsafe then that's real trouble because that's what will make people avoid the system and take their cars.

RER/ST is the solution and one that can be very quickly implemented and even a base service can start right away by having all GO trains accept a standard TTC ticket between Bloor West to Kennedy via Union. It would take all those passengers west of Bloor West and all of Scarborough heading to Union/Financial District off the subway lines. The service could be made even better by allowing riders to take UPX free to BW and also have 2 GO trains running constantly between BW & Kennedy and back so frequency would be high especially in rush hour which is the biggest concern.
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In order for RER/ST to be implemented, we need new all electric trains. The cost and time to get those are not much faster than building the DRL.

What really should happen is RER should be implemented with the current fleet while they install the overhead lines and buy the trains needed.
 
^ This is basically what I just said. Get the GO trains to accept standard TTC fares between Weston and Kennedy via Union. During rush hours this alone would take thousands off the B/D line and hence greatly reduce the stress at B/Y and the Yonge line south of Bloor. They can bring in electrification and make sure the trains are there when it opens {shouldn't really have to say that but with the Bombardier streetcar and Eglinton fiascos I guess I should} so service can start immediately and put all efforts of electrification on the Weston/Kennedy sections first but first things first, get the trains on the tracks.

I don't even think GO would really mind as they get next to no ridership from Torontonians between Kennedy and Weston anyway and it wouldn't make a hoot of difference to the TTC's bottom line as the vast majority of current GO riders from those stations take the TTC to get to them regardless. GO has the capacity and if they need more immediate trains they could also try to borrow some off other systems until new rolling stock arrives. This is what Philly did as they borrowed trains from Baltimore and New Jersey for their commuter trains.

I'm sure some of the major suppliers would also be willing to cheaply loan a few trains of their own to get a "good will" footing in the door for at the prospect of a HUGE contract of the upcoming RER. If GO is looking at Stadler, Alstom etc for potential EMUs I'm sure they would be willing to provide some of their comparable DMU {or Hydrail for Alstom} to showcase their trains and technology and to get into GO's good books. It would be great PR and cost them next to nothing and some Alstom ads on the side of the trains is the kind of exposure companies have wet dreams over.
 
wopchop said:
I'm curious as to which trains you have seen coming into Union during rush hours that have the capacity to take "thousands" off the Bloor Danforth line.
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It’s not only the type of train that matters, but also the number of trains, the frequency of service, and the number of dedicated platforms.
 
Leo_Chan said:
It’s not only the type of train that matters, but also the number of trains, the frequency of service, and the number of dedicated platforms.
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5 minute frequencies of double-decker GO trains have a capacity equal to or better than Yonge if you remove most seats from the lower floor (keep ~4 for those with mobility issues). Commuters to the upper floor, inner-city travellers making short trips can stand.

Metrolinx needs to do a bit of construction to achieve that; but they already get really close on Lake Shore during peak hours (express + local together).

4 tracks (East/West around union) running at Hudson Tunnel -> Penn Station frequencies (2 min) has a theoretical total capacity around 360,000 pph landing in Union. Unloading that is a massive challenge but even another $5B tossed at Union + corridor is damn cheap capacity compared to subway extensions. Paris achieves 2 minute frequencies with double-deckers; shorter length.

That's 3000 per train (standing level + upper seated level), 2 minute frequencies (90,000 pph per track) with full trains entering from 2 tracks East + 2 tracks West (4 through tracks total).

Charge as part of a TTC fare (free transfers) and shorten/redirect TTC many bus routes to the nearest RER station away from the subway. Job mostly done.
 
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ssiguy2 said:
^ This is basically what I just said. Get the GO trains to accept standard TTC fares between Weston and Kennedy via Union. During rush hours this alone would take thousands off the B/D line and hence greatly reduce the stress at B/Y and the Yonge line south of Bloor. They can bring in electrification and make sure the trains are there when it opens {shouldn't really have to say that but with the Bombardier streetcar and Eglinton fiascos I guess I should} so service can start immediately and put all efforts of electrification on the Weston/Kennedy sections first but first things first, get the trains on the tracks.

I don't even think GO would really mind as they get next to no ridership from Torontonians between Kennedy and Weston anyway and it wouldn't make a hoot of difference to the TTC's bottom line as the vast majority of current GO riders from those stations take the TTC to get to them regardless. GO has the capacity and if they need more immediate trains they could also try to borrow some off other systems until new rolling stock arrives. This is what Philly did as they borrowed trains from Baltimore and New Jersey for their commuter trains.

I'm sure some of the major suppliers would also be willing to cheaply loan a few trains of their own to get a "good will" footing in the door for at the prospect of a HUGE contract of the upcoming RER. If GO is looking at Stadler, Alstom etc for potential EMUs I'm sure they would be willing to provide some of their comparable DMU {or Hydrail for Alstom} to showcase their trains and technology and to get into GO's good books. It would be great PR and cost them next to nothing and some Alstom ads on the side of the trains is the kind of exposure companies have wet dreams over.
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wopchop said:
I'm curious as to which trains you have seen coming into Union during rush hours that have the capacity to take "thousands" off the Bloor Danforth line.
Click to expand...

Leo_Chan said:
It’s not only the type of train that matters, but also the number of trains, the frequency of service, and the number of dedicated platforms.
Click to expand...

rbt said:
5 minute frequencies of double-decker GO trains have a capacity equal to or better than Yonge if you remove most seats from the lower floor (keep ~4 for those with mobility issues). Commuters to the upper floor, inner-city travellers making short trips can stand.

Metrolinx needs to do a bit of construction to achieve that; but they already get really close on Lake Shore during peak hours (express + local together).

4 tracks (East/West around union) running at Hudson Tunnel -> Penn Station frequencies (2 min) has a theoretical total capacity around 360,000 pph landing in Union. Unloading that is a massive challenge but even another $5B tossed at Union + corridor is damn cheap capacity compared to subway extensions.

That's 3000 per train (standing level + upper seated level), 2 minute frequencies (90 pph per track) with full trains entering from both East + West on 4 tracks total.
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I would not suggest, nor did I suggest that it be at TTC fare. I am thinking more of the off peak times. Get that running more often.
 
ssiguy2 said:
Get the GO trains to accept standard TTC fares between Weston and Kennedy via Union. During rush hours this alone would take thousands off the B/D line and hence greatly reduce the stress at B/Y and the Yonge line south of Bloor.
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I take it you have never been on a go train at rush hour it's pretty much standing room only along the whole train, I really doubt they would have the trains to be able to take on people paying TTC fare during that period of time just for a few stops in the city of Toronto.
 
Perhaps a good idea to get both the City and Prov-Metrolinx on board with bringing Phase I RL west to the Exhibition area/BMO Field. Would provide a good interception point at Exhibition Station (LSW Line) and future Liberty Village Station (Kitchener Line), not to mention bookend the interception at East Harbour (LSE and Stouff lines). It essentially ties everything together.
 
From this link:
guide1933.gif

Before there was any subway in Toronto, we had trippers. Trippers basically combined two (or more) routes together, usually during the peak hours, to provide a continuous route without having to transfers vehicles.

We had the "DANFORTH TRIPPER", which ran along The Danforth from the Luttrell loop and down Church Street to get to downtown.

Too bad we can't "temporarily" combine the east part of Line 2 and continue it down the Relief Line to get to downtown. Basically, the DANFORTH TRIPPER reincarnated.
 
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