Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[minilude]

I still think more entrances and longer walkway to get coverage is the key. the walkways could have mini-retail spaces to enhance private sector involvement. It's quite common practice in other cities. I've seen stations have 10 entrances connecting to the nearby offices/malls/landmarks in downtown that has far more populations than Toronto.

 

[gweed123]

400 m stop spacing is essential.

IMO, 400m entrance spacing is essential. You can space the platforms themselves farther apart, as long as the "back end" entrance of one station is no more than 400m from the "front end" entrance of the next. That should be the criteria, not platform spacing.

 

[Tuscani01]

IMO, 400m entrance spacing is essential. You can space the platforms themselves farther apart, as long as the "back end" entrance of one station is no more than 400m from the "front end" entrance of the next. That should be the criteria, not platform spacing.

Queen is a perfect example of this. The station has entrances on the South and North side of Queen, and if you walk a block North, you can also get an entrance at Shuter Street. That's like having a bonus station between Queen and Dundas without the cost of building it, and without inconveniencing a number of riders with more stops.

 

[Edward Skira]

Queen is a perfect example of this. The station has entrances on the South and North side of Queen, and if you walk a block North, you can also get an entrance at Shuter Street. That's like having a bonus station between Queen and Dundas without the cost of building it, and without inconveniencing a number of riders with more stops.

It could have had an entrance at Richmond had the exit been at the south end of the platform with stairs heading south.

 

[W. K. Lis]

A City Hall station for the Relief Line should be able to handle passenger transfers from both Osgoode and Queen Stations. If done correctly, there should be several entrances, including a few PATH entrances. It would be a mistake to have only one entrance at this or the other stations. There should be a minimum of two entrances, preferably three entrances for each station.

 

[CapitalSeven]

IMO, 400m entrance spacing is essential. You can space the platforms themselves farther apart, as long as the "back end" entrance of one station is no more than 400m from the "front end" entrance of the next. That should be the criteria, not platform spacing.

But the line is being built under an existing streetcar line for local service which is not going to be eliminated (rather than along a possible route further south that would link areas that don't have an obvious east-west connection across the river). Close spacing is not essential.

 

[44 North]

I'm definitely a bit miffed by the lack of stations with the DRL. And though it's not as important for me, ditto for this new station-less Scarb Subway (Lawrence East is one of our top 10 busiest routes!). I definitely get the reason (cost, depth, complexity, etc) - but it's still annoying. Particularly when we see projects like the Crosstown with so many stations close together (*cough* Chaplin, Oakwood *cough*), or whatever's going on at Highway 407 Station.

But I hope a silver lining is that we're not done with the DRL study yet, and we can work in some interesting things. Perhaps a branched system, with the main trunk heading to Pape Stn, but a roughed-in branch continuing east on Queen or potentially curving south to the Port Lands. And with the DRL being semi-express (at least compared with the downtown sections of Line 1 and 2), perhaps we can work on grade-separating a 1-2km section of either the 506, 505, or 504 through the core. I wouldn't care if much of it were in an open cut (similar to some of the older Queen streetcar subway plans from decades ago). We could work in tree plantings and pedestrian crossings, and I think the improved speed/reliability would outweigh any opposition that it would "divide" neighbourhoods.

 

[MisterF]

But the line is being built under an existing streetcar line for local service which is not going to be eliminated (rather than along a possible route further south that would link areas that don't have an obvious east-west connection across the river). Close spacing is not essential.

The Queen streetcar is not essential, at least the portions where the RL will be right under it. It makes no sense to keep two forms of transit when one can do the job just fine. When did people get the bizarre notion that subways aren't for local service? Local service in a dense downtown core is what subways are best at.

Gimping the relief line to justify keeping the streetcar is completely backwards.

 

[CapitalSeven]

Well OK, but the 3.5 miles of Queen streetcar east of Broadview need to stay. And the bit as far as King street needs to stay for the 504. And the 10 miles west of Bay need to stay. But the 1.5 miles where the subway is can be torn up. If you want to get from Spadina to Leslieville, just transfer twice! Except that for all sorts of connectivity reasons, it makes no sense to tear up any of the track on Queen, so it will be kept, and some service will continue to run on it.

Gimping the subway? What is that supposed to mean? The ridership analysis was pretty clear that a route to the south would almost certainly attract more riders and put more of them closer to their destinations, but other factors were considered in choosing Queen. I would say the subway is getting gimped to create a warm and fuzzy feeling about City Hall, while the idea of locating the station hundreds of feet from Queen and Osgoode is pure folly.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Keeping the streetcars will provide "local" service and the Relief Line will provide "express" service. In addition, in case of problems with either service, there will be an alternative route available for both.

 

[MisterF]

Well OK, but the 3.5 miles of Queen streetcar east of Broadview need to stay. And the bit as far as King street needs to stay for the 504. And the 10 miles west of Bay need to stay. But the 1.5 miles where the subway is can be torn up. If you want to get from Spadina to Leslieville, just transfer twice! Except that for all sorts of connectivity reasons, it makes no sense to tear up any of the track on Queen, so it will be kept, and some service will continue to run on it.

The 3.6 km from Pape to City Hall is only the first phase of the RL. It will eventually reach all the way to the Roncesvalles area. At that point it will make sense to remove the central portion of the streetcar.

Gimping the subway? What is that supposed to mean? The ridership analysis was pretty clear that a route to the south would almost certainly attract more riders and put more of them closer to their destinations, but other factors were considered in choosing Queen. I would say the subway is getting gimped to create a warm and fuzzy feeling about City Hall, while the idea of locating the station hundreds of feet from Queen and Osgoode is pure folly.

Gimping the subway means keeping stations so far apart that people will be forced to ride the streetcar for short distances. And that's just what people are calling for here. If we design it properly there will be no need for that and the vast majority of riders will choose the subway.

Keeping the streetcars will provide "local" service and the Relief Line will provide "express" service. In addition, in case of problems with either service, there will be an alternative route available for both.

Again, where does this idea come from? If you go to Shanghai or Prague or Washington chances are you're going to get around the core of the city by subway, not bus or streetcar, unless the latter goes somewhere the subway doesn't. Toronto didn't keep streetcars for local service on Yonge, Bloor or the Danforth. As I said, the vast majority of riders will choose the subway. As for service problems on the subway, people will do what seems like a foreign concept in Toronto currently: take a parallel subway instead of your usual line. That will actually be possible when the RL is complete.

To repeat, subways are for local service. This notion that they aren't seems to be a weird Toronto phenomenon.

 

[gweed123]

Queen is a perfect example of this. The station has entrances on the South and North side of Queen, and if you walk a block North, you can also get an entrance at Shuter Street. That's like having a bonus station between Queen and Dundas without the cost of building it, and without inconveniencing a number of riders with more stops.

That's true. Overall though, the downtown subway stations do a pretty poor job of having good entrance coverage. Every downtown station should have a main entrance near the middle of the platform, and 2 end entrances, which connect to the nearest cross st. Think of how much better more accessible the stretch of Yonge between Dundas and College would be if there were station exits at Gould and just north of Gerrard.

But the line is being built under an existing streetcar line for local service which is not going to be eliminated (rather than along a possible route further south that would link areas that don't have an obvious east-west connection across the river). Close spacing is not essential.

Honestly, my preference would be to see the DRL extended to Spadina, and then have the Queen streetcars run on Queen until Spadina, then south on Spadina, then east on King until King rejoins Queen. The King ROW should have enough capacity to handle that, and that way we avoid a duplication in service.

 

[Hopkins123]

That's true. Overall though, the downtown subway stations do a pretty poor job of having good entrance coverage. Every downtown station should have a main entrance near the middle of the platform, and 2 end entrances, which connect to the nearest cross st. Think of how much better more accessible the stretch of Yonge between Dundas and College would be if there were station exits at Gould and just north of Gerrard.

College Station isn't so bad because via the College Park shopping centre, one can access a climate-free pedestrian walkway almost all the way down to Gerrard. I do believe they are planning on opening up a subway entrance to the new Ryerson building at Gould.

Honestly, my preference would be to see the DRL extended to Spadina, and then have the Queen streetcars run on Queen until Spadina, then south on Spadina, then east on King until King rejoins Queen. The King ROW should have enough capacity to handle that, and that way we avoid a duplication in service.

+1

The Spadina streetcar carries over 50,000 passengers a day. It should be a no-brainer to extend the subway one more stop over, especially it takes them another decade after phase 1 to start phase 2.

I think it would be good for the 501 Queen to terminate at Charlotte Loop after meeting the subway at Spadina/Queen.

 

[Hopkins123]

The Queen streetcar is not essential, at least the portions where the RL will be right under it. It makes no sense to keep two forms of transit when one can do the job just fine. When did people get the bizarre notion that subways aren't for local service? Local service in a dense downtown core is what subways are best at.

Gimping the relief line to justify keeping the streetcar is completely backwards.

That's why it is essential that Parliament Street is directly served via the subway such that no overlap of service is needed between University and Carlaw. Skipping it is like what almost happened along the Eglinton Crosstown when Laird was to be skipped in favour of a less practical Brentcliffe stop. Sanity prevailed there so hopefully the same thing happens in the DRL's case.

 

[gweed123]

College Station isn't so bad because via the College Park shopping centre, one can access a climate-free pedestrian walkway almost all the way down to Gerrard. I do believe they are planning on opening up a subway entrance to the new Ryerson building at Gould.

That's true. Still, it would be nice to have a direct-to-street access point from the south end of the platform without having to double back.

+1

The Spadina streetcar carries over 50,000 passengers a day. It should be a no-brainer to extend the subway one more stop over, especially it takes them another decade after phase 1 to start phase 2.

I think it would be good for the 501 Queen to terminate at Charlotte Loop after meeting the subway at Spadina/Queen.

You can short turn some, but I think there's value in continuing it along Queen. The 501 will still be the only true crosstown line south of Bloor until the Waterfront LRT opens. But yes, I've been advocating for some time that Phase I of the DRL needs to go to Spadina, and not just the CBD.