Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[salsa]

It would be nice to have a Bloor viaduct style crossing over the West Don, but closing Sheppard Ave to rebuild the bridge in that manner would be massively disruptive.

 

[Edward Skira]

The point of a Sheppard West extension would be to see if the extension cost and expansion of Wilson outweighed the cost of a brand new yard.

The current Wilson yard expansion is a $260m project, and considering the location and relative ease of construction, that is likely a fair "basic price" for that type of work. A brand new yard would be multiple orders of magnitude more than that, and there aren't many locations along the DRL route that would be as simple.

From what I know, it doesn't sound like DRL-Long would be able to co-exist with Bloor-Danforth at Greenwood.

Another option was previously mentioned, and it is a good one IMO. Purchase Obico Yard and shift BD trains to it. DRL-Long trains would takeover Greenwood. Even that likely has a huge cost, and I'm not sure if it has ever been fully studied.

And if there's no ridership need for a connection between Yonge and Downsview how about just one tunnel to allow the trains to access Wilson Yard?

 

[aquateam]

The vaughan extension (or rather, the York University Extension) has been on the books in varying forms since the 1980's. The 1996 extension to Downsview was originally planned to be the first portion of the line.

I knew about the extension to York. There were two conflicting views, either to "close the loop" by heading north and then east on the hydro ROW or continue north and west to York University. I just never knew they considered going all the way to Vaughn Corporate Centre.

I also notice that the RTES says that extending the Spadina line to VCC has "No potential for success" (Exhibit ES-22)

 

[nfitz]

It would be nice to have a Bloor viaduct style crossing over the West Don, but closing Sheppard Ave to rebuild the bridge in that manner would be massively disruptive.

Why would it require closing? The Bloor line bridge (the Rosedale Valley Bridge) over Rosedale Valley is located in a separate structure north of Bloor. Presumably you'd do the same on Sheppard.

We're not talking about the Prince Edward Viaduct here - I don't think anyone has mentioned that bridge.

 

[44 North]

I'm pretty sure I've seen some discussion of the West Don structure in 1980s or 1990s documents. Perhaps even in the Toronto Star reports back then.

There's other enclosed structures - what about the Bloor line bridge over Rosedale Valley Road, east of Sherbourne station (the one that used to have skylights)? Hopefully your not going to tell me that's under water during storms!

It's possible there may've been info in the original Sheppard EA (another EA I can't find online). But I've searched and never found info on how the West Don would be crossed for a Sheppard West line. And I'm aware of the Rosedale Valley bridge (I can hear it from quite a distance, even with its skylights closed). I support bridges, particularly if they can save several hundred $Million and allow for more and shallower stations. Like I said, my point earlier was tongue in cheek. But Rosedale Valley was crossed in the 60s, and around the same time the TTC faced a battle with nimbys concerning crossing Hogg's hollow. Two bridges were offered, the TTC swayed to their demands for underground. And as a result we have fewer (but costlier) stations in that area.

Related to this thread: the method that was used to pass under the Don at York Mills will not work for the Lower Don. So it's either an extremely deep line with very costly and deep stations on either side. Or build a bridge (which is still a possibility at this point).

 

[nfitz]

It's possible there may've been info in the original Sheppard EA (another EA I can't find online).

I doubt it is online.

It's a 3-volume report. And the Toronto Library hold 4 sets - http://www.torontopubliclibrary.ca/detail.jsp?Entt=RDM283327&R=283327 - 3 of which are at the Toronto Reference Library.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The construction at Vincent Yard - between Keele and Dundas West Stations - is to allow for the storage of 8 trains. This, in concert with a small expansion at Greenwood Yard and a new spare track at Kipling, will allow for all of the T1s to be stored on the B-D.

Or at least it would have until they decided to revamp the signalling system and prevent the use of T1s on Sheppard.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Okay. Thank You. Seems like this is a band aid though.

Open a yard on the walmart site? Instead of creating a new yard there they could purchase the Obico yard from CP, which is for sale. At least that's what Steve Munro thinks. Then you could free up Greenwood yard for DRL trains.

I had no idea. I would consider a square extension in turn for land for a yard in Mississauga as well.

There have been notices about this construction on the TTC website - such as https://www.ttc.ca/PDF/Transit_expansion_PDFs/Dorval_Rd_Closure_Notice_Jul07_2014_w.pdf

Though I can't find a current one - perhaps they have finished (or at least are not impacting the nearby roads anymore.

Thanks. looke like they are serious.

If anyone wants a quick refresher about what the TTC said about a Sheppard West ext (from this report):

Option A6 ñ A 4.5 kilometre westerly extension from Yonge Street to Allen Road (with stations at Bathurst and Downsview) was identified initially but was screened from further consideration for the following reasons (see Exhibit ES-11):
•As Downsview Station is already served by the Spadina Subway line, only one additional station is possible (Bathurst) and this station has only limited development potential.
•Demand for rapid transit is considerably higher east of Yonge Street in comparison to west of Yonge Street. The growth of the North York City Centre does not depend on a westerly extension of the Sheppard Subway line and consequently a westerly extension is considered lower priority in comparison to further easterly extensions.
•The high capital cost of such an extension is not matched by high ridership or re-development potential.
•Population and employment growth in the corridor is projected to be low.
•Densities in the area are projected to be below the threshold for implementation of rapid transit.
•The opportunities for feeder bus savings and commuter parking potential are considered to be low. While there would be some strategic benefit in terms of encouraging Sheppard Subway riders to utilize the Spadina Subway line (rather the Yonge Subway line) to access the downtown core and in providing additional network connectivity for a variety of trip origins and destinations, a westerly extension of the Sheppard Subway is not considered a high priority in the short to medium term. Consequently, Option A6 was screened from further consideration.​

View attachment 51170

One thing I was looking for in particular with this report was info on how the West Don would be crossed at Bathurst. I can't seem to find any info, but it seems obvious that the only answer is a bridge. And if I'm led to believe what many posters have written about the impossibility of building any elevated structure for subways, then it should be obvious a Sheppard West ext is out of the question.

The Finch LRT will go to Finch Station, so I think this is out either way.

 

[11th]

It would be nice to have a Bloor viaduct style crossing over the West Don, but closing Sheppard Ave to rebuild the bridge in that manner would be massively disruptive.

Didn't they close it few years ago when it partially collapsed during the rainstorm? (or was it Finch ? )

 

[nfitz]

Off hand, I can't recall any closures of either at the West Don. There's certainly been some major potholes/washouts on Finch. But I can't think of anything at the West Don; that would be pretty epic!

Though just because I don't recall it, doesn't mean it hasn't happened!

 

[11th]

Off hand, I can't recall any closures of either at the West Don. There's certainly been some major potholes/washouts on Finch. But I can't think of anything at the West Don; that would be pretty epic!

Though just because I don't recall it, doesn't mean it hasn't happened!

Didn't know it's a 60 year-old bridge; and you are correct, it was just a sinkhole.
I'm not sure how long such structure usually lasts, but probably not exceeding 70 years?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I'm an advocate of Sheppard East extension to the Spadina Line. A strong transit network needs contingency and it needs connectivity.

Playing a game of connect-the-dots might make the map look pretty, but ultimately we shouldn't be building transit in places where there is no demand.

It also makes the useless stub of the line into something worthwhile. The economics might not justify it on its own but sometimes when planning transit there is more important things like providing opening new and different transit and commuting options to passengers.

However, I am unsure if it would aid with relief too much necessarily. Wouldn't more people transfer from the Spadina line to Yonge than would Sheppard passengers choosing to bypass Yonge for Spadina?

This is why we have travel demand modelling.

It also should be pointed out that a western extension of Line 4 would cost money. I'd hope that this would be far down the priority list, as we have more important things to spend money on.

 

[nfitz]

I'm not sure how long such structure usually lasts, but probably not exceeding 70 years?

With rehabilitation, it can go on forever, really. The Victoria Bridge over the St. Lawrence River in Montreal is over 150 years old (though much of the structure above the piers is only 115 years old) - and probably safer than the nearby more modem Champlain Bridge.

There's no shortage of Roman bridges still in use.

 

[kotsy]

Even if the new yard is more expensive, I'd prefer the TTC get one. Having 50% of the total fleet (80%+ of the TRs) come out of Wilson will cause extreme pain when something goes wrong at Wilson (explosion, fire, power outage, ...). 2 connections at Wilson is an improvement but not really sufficient to derisk a single massive yard.

Not to mention TTC pays the drivers of all the trains that terminate at Eglinton/Finch at the end of the night to deadhead all the way back around to Wilson yard. I also know from experience that a lot of the closing trains from both ends never end up in the yard when they are supposed to and the drivers sit in line waiting while making double time. These costs could be reduced greatly with another yard I'm sure.

 

[BurlOak]

There's no shortage of Roman bridges still in use.

There is a larger list of Roman bridges that are long since gone.

I can't recall a rehab on the Sheppard bridge - the normal cycle is about 25 or 30 years. I would not be surprised if this bridge needs a rehab that would cost roughly half the replacement cost ($40M).

 

[BurlOak]

.
I guess I consider the two to be different. As smallspy mentioned, there was no engineering done for how the valley would be crossed at Earl Bales, but I was under the impression the structure would be much higher and longer than what's found outside Leslie station on Sheppard East. That's a very low level bridge, it's short, and it's completely encased in concrete - not for noise reduction, but because the thing is under water during storms.

East Don had to be short and low since Leslie St. was right there. It's true that it would be underwater (partially) for a Regional Storm (Hazel). I have heard anyone say what the bridge soffit clearance was during last year's storms.

West Don would be much easier with its higher elevation. Either build new WB and EB subway on either side of bridge, or rebuild the entire bridge at higher elevation with subway under.