Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[Edward Skira]

Present an exact route to show where the stations are going to be and the concept becomes more real as opposed to an abstraction. And how those specific intersections will benefit.

Exactly. Right now the only people that really know what the DRL are transit folks. Show people at Don Mills and Eglinton (for example) that you can take the subway downtown without taking a long bus ride first and you'll quickly get a lot of supporters.

 

[LNahid2000]

Exactly. Right now the only people that really know what the DRL are transit folks. Show people at Don Mills and Eglinton (for example) that you can take the subway downtown without taking a long bus ride first and you'll quickly get a lot of supporters.

You'll be able to get from Don Mills and Eglinton to downtown without the long bus ride in 2021!

 

[Amare]

You'll be able to get from Don Mills and Eglinton to downtown without the long bus ride in 2021!

In 2021 both "Smarttrack" and the DRL will still be nothing more than lines drawn on a map. But in the DRL's case, the line will be more definitive.

 

[LNahid2000]

In 2021 both "Smarttrack" and the DRL will still be nothing more than lines drawn on a map. But in the DRL's case, the line will be more definitive.

I'm talking about the Eglinton LRT...

 

[44 North]

Toronto is the reason the Relief Life is getting pushed to the back burner. They've spent years chasing useless endeavours such as the Sheppard subway, putting all of Eglinton LRT underground, and subways on Finch and now you have them chasing Smart Track. In order for transit to be built in this region, it needs political backers and politicians advocating for it because they control the funding. Instead of getting all the political support behind the Relief Line and making sure it gets built, they are all over the map. Each new mayor brings his own transit plan and messes everything up. Look at Misisssauga, everybody from the politicians to the bureaucrats have all been advocating for the Hurontario LRT and it's no surprise its getting built. York Region has been pushing the Yonge North extension as their main transit project and I wouldn't be surprised if it gets built. Ditto for Kitchener and Hamilton, sure there were disagreements among politicians and residents but the LRT's there have been their main projects being pushed forward and it's no surprise that they are being built. Toronto demonstrates everything that is wrong with transit in this region, politicians coming drawing lines on a map and screwing everything up.

Oh, c'mon. Do you genuinely believe that if TO supported a Relief Line (which we do) that the Prov of Feds would flock to fund it? And doesn't the fact that Mlinx is studying an entirely separate relief line (one rife with bonkers ideas) kinda disprove the notion that they're really willing to work with the city on this?

Your logic that if a project has "political backers" that it will automatically be a recipient of funding and support is not true. Look at waterfront transit. There's been a huge push to get the WWLRT and EBFLRT started. We had local councillors, City Hall, TO planners, TTC executives, and anti-streetcar Rob Ford all begging higher levels of gov't for a funding commitment. Nobody came. The Prov Libs promised TO ~$12bn for transit, and I guess a DRL in place by 2031. Is it TO's fault that those commitments and promises were unreliable?

As for your other point about TO's "useless endeavours" being "all over the map" - why do you think that is? Answer: many decades of unreliable higher levels of government, and unreliable funding which tends get whittled down and go towards projects that win votes. Us in TO are left to fight over scraps. Sure a subway on Queen or Don Mills is super important. But Eglinton, Finch, and Sheppard have been ID'd as being worthy of RT for decades. Subway-like upgrades will always have huge local support. Yes tram-style LRT as proposed with TC is a great proposal, but that doesn't mean changes to the plans aren't worth discussing either. Upgrading plans has happened outside TO, and continues to happen - with much less headlines or ire. For TYSSE the Jane corridor in Vaughan was upgraded from nothing to subway; in Markham a bus plan was upgraded from bus to subway; and currently York Region is studying upgrading more bus plans to subway along two separate corridors up to Major Mack.

Then look at the Prov and their changes to GO plans. Originally Lakeshore was supposed to be the only line getting electrified RER, with the other corridors getting ad2w diesel - all by 2019. Now Lakeshore has been delayed into the 2020s while new proposals for electrified RER is built on Barrie, Stouffville, and Kitchener. And the RH line will be getting almost no improvements and no ad2w with no explanation given.

These are changes 'all over the map', but somehow instead of being seen as stupid or political they're lauded. Are they really no worse than proposals from TO pols to upgrade LRT to subway along corridors ID'd as being worthy of subway-like infrastructure since the 70s?* As a huge DRL supporter I definitely get your point: more pols in TO should make their voices heard about the need for a DRL. But we're an old city, with many problems, and numerous other transit priorities. And we know the Prov doesn't want TO's idea of a relief line - which is why they're undertaking their own study that disregards our relief line criteria. So even if we did make more noise, it's pretty clear it won't make much difference. The project costs a lot, it doesn't win many votes, and it doesn't result in the same type of land value increases as suburban projects.

*SmartTrack I don't think is fair to compare as a typical municipal change of plans considering it's very unique and very fishy. I can't think of any past municipal politician or proposal pushing a line using Prov corridors, and which exactly mirrors preexisting Prov plans (in this case Stouffville RER, Kitchener RER, and a Crosstown West extn). Seems to me Tory is very much part of the Liberal government, which kinda makes sense since Chow was obviously tied to the NDP and Doug Ford was tied to the PCs. ​

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Oh, c'mon. Do you genuinely believe that if TO supported a Relief Line (which we do) that the Prov of Feds would flock to fund it? And doesn't the fact that Mlinx is studying an entirely separate relief line (one rife with bonkers ideas) kinda disprove the notion that they're really willing to work with the city on this?

You're reading too much into the evaluated alignments of the YRNS. The firm was hired to evaluate potential feasible options for the Relief Line alignment (LRT, subway, surface subway), and that's exactly what they did. The three best perfuming options were selected for further evaluation, but the report was unambiguous in their assertion that the Relief Line Long or Surface Subway are the best options for Yonge Line Relief. To me this looks like the design process is working as it should. We should avoid artificially ruling out options just because we suspect they won't perform well.

 

[44 North]

You're reading too much into the evaluated alignments of the YRNS. The firm was hired to evaluate potential feasible options for the Relief Line alignment (LRT, subway, surface subway), and that's exactly what they did. The three best perfuming options were selected for further evaluation, but the report was unambiguous in their assertion that the Relief Line Long or Surface Subway are the best options for Yonge Line Relief. To me this looks like the design process is working as it should. We should avoid artificially ruling out options just because we suspect they won't perform well.

I definitely get what you're saying, and I do in fact commend Mlinx for presenting ideas that are more outside the box with regards to the conventional DRL. Some of these ideas I've even presented in fantasy maps in the past. What my main issue is with each line are as follows:

• LRT - fine in certain respects, and allows for affordable extensions, flexibility, and branching. But running the line along the surface on Front Street is bass ackward. The line is completely grade-separate for the whole route outside the core, but downtown they have it slogging through traffic - which goes against TO's mandate of actually fixing surface transit downtown. It's like a reverse Eglinton Crosstown, which doesn't make any sense. Do they want a quick, low cost, low ridership route so that they can also rebuild Yonge-Bloor as a means of improving Yonge relief?

• Surface Subway - has certain merits. But Mlinx completely excluded stations in Thorncliffe and the downtown east shoulder. Why? Both huge population areas avoided, goes against our RL criteria, and something the City would fight tooth and nail against. They could've easily utilized TTC's Option A corridor between Broadview and Y/U-S, but didn't. So why'd they do this? Is it it improve its relief capabilites over the DRTES routing? And like the LRT proposal, it also runs through a notorious floodplain. There are also questions re: the viability of running a high-frequency 7-car subway along the rail-trail Leaside Spur.

• Subway (or conventional DRTES routing). The most expensive, but from a planning perspective it's the best line. But unlike the LRT or Surface Subway proposals, Mlinx gives very little detail about the routing. Even the map they provided is very vague, with the line zigzagging up to Dundas and swinging around through East York. Since there's no description of the routing, I can only assume it's sloppiness (perhaps because they know they won't support it).

So yes, I'm glad they're being thorough and not artificially ruling things out. But since it is so thorough, why have they left so many questions unanswered? This is pretty far in the planning stages, but you wouldn't think it when looking at the routings in detail.

 

[BurlOak]

Oh, c'mon. Do you genuinely believe that if TO supported a Relief Line (which we do) that the Prov of Feds would flock to fund it? And doesn't the fact that Mlinx is studying an entirely separate relief line (one rife with bonkers ideas) kinda disprove the notion that they're really willing to work with the city on this?

Your logic that if a project has "political backers" that it will automatically be a recipient of funding and support is not true. Look at waterfront transit. There's been a huge push to get the WWLRT and EBFLRT started. We had local councillors, City Hall, TO planners, TTC executives, and anti-streetcar Rob Ford all begging higher levels of gov't for a funding commitment. Nobody came. The Prov Libs promised TO ~$12bn for transit, and I guess a DRL in place by 2031. Is it TO's fault that those commitments and promises were unreliable?

In 2007, the Prov Libs ignored the 2006 TTC report the recommended upgrading the SRT and cozied up with Daivd Miller to win the political left in the City. In 2012/13, they ignored the 2012 Metrolinx report about a connected Eglinton / Scarborough line to help destroy the political right in the City. The Prov Libs have orchestrated ALL transit plans in this City since they hold the purse strings. Is it TO's fault? Well, look how they voted.

 

[Adjei]

In 2007, the Prov Libs ignored the 2006 TTC report the recommended upgrading the SRT and cozied up with Daivd Miller to win the political left in the City. In 2012/13, they ignored the 2012 Metrolinx report about a connected Eglinton / Scarborough line to help destroy the political right in the City. The Prov Libs have orchestrated ALL transit plans in this City since they hold the purse strings. Is it TO's fault? Well, look how they voted.

Right and I guess if Toronto had voted for the Tories, they would have built more transit projects. The same party who fill in tunnels from already started projects.

 

[Adjei]

Oh, c'mon. Do you genuinely believe that if TO supported a Relief Line (which we do) that the Prov of Feds would flock to fund it? And doesn't the fact that Mlinx is studying an entirely separate relief line (one rife with bonkers ideas) kinda disprove the notion that they're really willing to work with the city on this?

Your logic that if a project has "political backers" that it will automatically be a recipient of funding and support is not true. Look at waterfront transit. There's been a huge push to get the WWLRT and EBFLRT started. We had local councillors, City Hall, TO planners, TTC executives, and anti-streetcar Rob Ford all begging higher levels of gov't for a funding commitment. Nobody came. The Prov Libs promised TO ~$12bn for transit, and I guess a DRL in place by 2031. Is it TO's fault that those commitments and promises were unreliable?

As for your other point about TO's "useless endeavours" being "all over the map" - why do you think that is? Answer: many decades of unreliable higher levels of government, and unreliable funding which tends get whittled down and go towards projects that win votes. Us in TO are left to fight over scraps. Sure a subway on Queen or Don Mills is super important. But Eglinton, Finch, and Sheppard have been ID'd as being worthy of RT for decades. Subway-like upgrades will always have huge local support. Yes tram-style LRT as proposed with TC is a great proposal, but that doesn't mean changes to the plans aren't worth discussing either. Upgrading plans has happened outside TO, and continues to happen - with much less headlines or ire. For TYSSE the Jane corridor in Vaughan was upgraded from nothing to subway; in Markham a bus plan was upgraded from bus to subway; and currently York Region is studying upgrading more bus plans to subway along two separate corridors up to Major Mack.

Then look at the Prov and their changes to GO plans. Originally Lakeshore was supposed to be the only line getting electrified RER, with the other corridors getting ad2w diesel - all by 2019. Now Lakeshore has been delayed into the 2020s while new proposals for electrified RER is built on Barrie, Stouffville, and Kitchener. And the RH line will be getting almost no improvements and no ad2w with no explanation given.

These are changes 'all over the map', but somehow instead of being seen as stupid or political they're lauded. Are they really no worse than proposals from TO pols to upgrade LRT to subway along corridors ID'd as being worthy of subway-like infrastructure since the 70s?* As a huge DRL supporter I definitely get your point: more pols in TO should make their voices heard about the need for a DRL. But we're an old city, with many problems, and numerous other transit priorities. And we know the Prov doesn't want TO's idea of a relief line - which is why they're undertaking their own study that disregards our relief line criteria. So even if we did make more noise, it's pretty clear it won't make much difference. The project costs a lot, it doesn't win many votes, and it doesn't result in the same type of land value increases as suburban projects.

*SmartTrack I don't think is fair to compare as a typical municipal change of plans considering it's very unique and very fishy. I can't think of any past municipal politician or proposal pushing a line using Prov corridors, and which exactly mirrors preexisting Prov plans (in this case Stouffville RER, Kitchener RER, and a Crosstown West extn). Seems to me Tory is very much part of the Liberal government, which kinda makes sense since Chow was obviously tied to the NDP and Doug Ford was tied to the PCs. ​

Yes I I believe that. Toronto supported a relief line? Don't make me laugh. Which mayor supported a Relief Line? Was it Mel Lastman who was chasing subways on Sheppard? Was it David Miller who was going after Transit City? Was it Rob Ford who was going after subways on Sheppard, burying all of Eglinton, and subways on Finch? Or is it John Tory who is chasing nonsense like Smart Track?

Don't try and rewrite history. The Downtown Relief Line has been around for many years without any traction. Recently it only came on the radar of Toronto city council when they saw that Yonge North subway was gaining traction and may get built, that's when they even offered a semblance of support for it.

Metrolinx is looking at things from a regional context which is why a seperate study is being done which is what is supposed to be done. We live in one region and not just Toronto. People travel across the region. Toronto only cares about what happens in Toronto.

Yes if a transit project has support from politicians on the municipal level especially starting first with the mayor, it would most likely be built. It doesn't mean every laundry list of projects will be built. Lastman was fully behind Sheppard and he got a part of it built. Miller was behind Transit City and got major components of it built or funding in place for it. We have the Crosstown being built, Finch about to start, and commitment for funding for Sheppard. Sure not the whole thing will get built which has more to do with funding, but since he was backing the project when funding was available, it got funding because it was the priority for Toronto at the time. If it wasn't for the nonsense Rob Ford was doing, I wouldn't be surprised if there was traction for the continuation of the subway on Sheppard. We have all seen the support for Smart Track from the higher ups since it looks like it's the number one project for Toronto now.

As for the EBLRT and WWLRT, not everything can be funded. Support for those projects are lukewarm at best. Is there the same level of support for it compared to Smart Track? Toronto will get to decide which projects get built more when they start putting more of their money in the game. They act like a small village instead a big city. If the province or the feds don't build projects they can't do anything. They have taxing powers but refuse to use it and even cancel then when implemented. Go to places like New York City, they have taxes on hotels and and tolls on all those bridges into the city. When Toronto decides to act like a big city and implement much needed tolls and taxes to fund projects instead of relying on the property tax alone, then they can dictate which projects get built.

Last I checked Eglinton, Finch, and Sheppard all have RT projects in place which are being funded by the province. I don't see what point you are making.

GO RER should have been done ages ago and it's sensible that it's being done. Also the province isn't building everything at once. It's being done incrementally with service and ridership being added as year goes on. They are not doing what Toronto does and trying to put subways in places like Finch and Sheppard where they are not needed. You don't see the province proposing subways to Barrie.

Yeah the province may not want Toronto's version of the DRL. Frankly I don't blame them. Toronto doesn't even know what they want.

York Region may have those subway plans but many of them like the extension to Wonderland and subways on Major Mackenzie are pretty much fantasies. Wake me up when York Region politicians stand up and demand those subways like we saw Toronto demanding subways on Finch.

As for the the Downtown Relief Line, the Star best says, right now it's a fantasy. Yeah something which people here want us to believe is such a big priority for Toronto is being described as a fantasy:

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2015/12/29/toronto-downtown-relief-line-still-a-fantasy.html

Toronto claims to be a world class city, a big global city. It's time it grows up and stop acting and behaving like a small village.

 

[sixrings]

The problem is Toronto plan transit that needs help from other levels of government. They would be better off with transit they could pay for by additional taxes such as vehicle registration, tolls, added sales tax and higher fares. Instead we beg for funding for projects we end up canceling

 

[Tuscani01]

What drives me nuts about stories like the one above is this:

"The relief line, said Munro, is not on anyone’s “A list” as far as funding goes."

Yet a few lines up:

"Council has directed city staff to do community consultations and technical work to determine the preferred route and stations, which they will report back on.

Even if funding was secured tomorrow, the project would have to move from the project assessment phase into design before construction could start.

“We’ve been talking about a 15-year timeline,” said Hilary Holden, the city’s director of transit and sustainable transportation."

Of course its not on anyone's A-list to fund... there is currently nothing to fund. The last estimate as to the cost of the project is from 3 years ago, based on nothing of substance. (No station locations, no alignment selected, no design work, no public consultation)

What exactly are people expecting to get funding for when no one can say what the DRL is going to look like?

Sure you can say that Smart Track got funding, when we don't know what Smart Track will look like... but look into the funding announcements. None of the funding promised to date has anything to do with Smart Track. The extra stations and Eglinton spur have yet to be funded by any level of government. It's no further along as the DRL at this point.

We are the closest we have ever been to having an actual plan in place for the DRL. At that point, we will have an idea of how much it will cost, and how much to ask for. Until that work is complete, I don't understand the calls to immediately fund the line. They are premature at this point in the process.

 

[gweed123]

I still maintain that the compromise will be that SmartTrack (aka Toronto RER) will be routed away from Union and into a Central Tunnel. The DRL will simply be absorbed into SmartTrack and the DRL alignment will use RER vehicles instead of TTC Subway vehicles. This will allow the DRL branches to extend far further into the suburbs than a subway, unless it includes a money tree, ever could.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

Tory said SmartTrack would cost $8 billion (that's not measuring cost increases as the realities of the Eglinton West spur are realized). Metrolinx estimates a relief line from Don Mills/Sheppard to Osgoode will cost $7.8 billion. I like to round and equate the two.

When an actual alignment and station stops are chosen in the EA process, that will make the relief line a tangible thing; the alignment north of bloor will be pretty easy to draw in. I'm interested to see how quick councillors will jump off the SmartTrack bandwagon and get behind a relief line. It will be a simple choice of where to spend $8 billion: Tory's proposal to tweak existing GO RER commitments, or a brand new subway line.

 

[Tuscani01]

Tory said SmartTrack would cost $8 billion (that's not measuring cost increases as the realities of the Eglinton West spur are realized). Metrolinx estimates a relief line from Don Mills/Sheppard to Osgoode will cost $7.8 billion. I like to round and equate the two.

When an actual alignment and station stops are chosen in the EA process, that will make the relief line a tangible thing; the alignment north of bloor will be pretty easy to draw in. I'm interested to see how quick councillors will jump off the SmartTrack bandwagon and get behind a relief line. It will be a simple choice of where to spend $8 billion: Tory's proposal to tweak existing GO RER commitments, or a brand new subway line.

Perhaps we can see a compromise come out of this. Ditch the east end of Smart Track in favour of the DRL, and push for the West end of Smart Track to provide relief to neighbourhoods west of downtown, but without the Eglinton spur. Oh, and scrap the Scarborough subway extension too while we're at it.