Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[44 North]

Yes I I believe that. Toronto supported a relief line? Don't make me laugh. Which mayor supported a Relief Line? Was it Mel Lastman who was chasing subways on Sheppard? Was it David Miller who was going after Transit City? Was it Rob Ford who was going after subways on Sheppard, burying all of Eglinton, and subways on Finch? Or is it John Tory who is chasing nonsense like Smart Track?

Don't try and rewrite history. The Downtown Relief Line has been around for many years without any traction. Recently it only came on the radar of Toronto city council when they saw that Yonge North subway was gaining traction and may get built, that's when they even offered a semblance of support for it.

Not trying to rewrite history. I know the DRL history pretty well and have happily spoken about it in depth many times. In the last three decades the biggest supporters of the DRL were Miller/Giamrbone. Yes, it doesn't sound like it. But they got the study started, and made it a point that the DRL will start construction sometime on/after 2019 (i.e in three years, once TC is completed). This is pretty close to where we are now, minus TC being even close to compete or even properly funded. Ford came around and tried to divert some of the pre-established ~$12bn TC funding to upgrade other projects. But he never really discounted the DRL being built thereafter. The problem in both these mayoralties is that the ~$12bn Prov funding was unreliable. How were local level pols supposed to know the Prov can't be trusted?

Tory I don't know what the hell is going on, and it's very fishy. I listened to his radio show and the guy was hardcore supportive of a DRL. And really, it seems very strange for a mayor to support Prov projects as if they were municipal. I can't think of any past politician proposing something similar. Regardless, TO council and Planning can support Prov GO upgrades and a DRL (which we are). They're not mutually exclusive. ​

Metrolinx is looking at things from a regional context which is why a seperate study is being done which is what is supposed to be done. We live in one region and not just Toronto. People travel across the region. Toronto only cares about what happens in Toronto.

But this isn't a joint study - it's an entirely separate one. And if you read Mlinx's report, it's pretty clear they've disregarded our RL criteria. Why is that "supposed to be done"?

Yes if a transit project has support from politicians on the municipal level especially starting first with the mayor, it would most likely be built. It doesn't mean every laundry list of projects will be built. Lastman was fully behind Sheppard and he got a part of it built. Miller was behind Transit City and got major components of it built or funding in place for it. We have the Crosstown being built, Finch about to start, and commitment for funding for Sheppard. Sure not the whole thing will get built which has more to do with funding, but since he was backing the project when funding was available, it got funding because it was the priority for Toronto at the time. If it wasn't for the nonsense Rob Ford was doing, I wouldn't be surprised if there was traction for the continuation of the subway on Sheppard. We have all seen the support for Smart Track from the higher ups since it looks like it's the number one project for Toronto now.

As for the EBLRT and WWLRT, not everything can be funded. Support for those projects are lukewarm at best. Is there the same level of support for it compared to Smart Track? Toronto will get to decide which projects get built more when they start putting more of their money in the game. They act like a small village instead a big city. If the province or the feds don't build projects they can't do anything. They have taxing powers but refuse to use it and even cancel then when implemented. Go to places like New York City, they have taxes on hotels and and tolls on all those bridges into the city. When Toronto decides to act like a big city and implement much needed tolls and taxes to fund projects instead of relying on the property tax alone, then they can dictate which projects get built.

Just like with Lastman's Sheppard stub, what ends up being built is usually a fraction of what was originally planned. Reason: unreliable higher-level funding that tends to get whittled-down and go towards projects with greater political merit. Which is exactly what's happening with the current Libs, but nobody wants to talk about it. MO2020 and the Big Move got all messed up, and Rob Ford had little do with that. It's mostly the Prov's fault for promising the world before an election, then scaling it back, then changing their own plans/priorities.

Re: the EBF LRT. There's no reason to create taxes. Why? Because the Prov promised it would be funded, and there's still (theoretically) a lot of funding on the table. The support for the line is longstanding and loud, and arguably much greater than SmartTrack. It is not "lukewarm". We've seen higher levels of gov't open up their wallets for unstudied lines on a map, even when these lines are costly high-risk ventures. But not for a shovel-ready 2km streetcar line? That doesn't make sense.

GO RER should have been done ages ago and it's sensible that it's being done. Also the province isn't building everything at once. It's being done incrementally with service and ridership being added as year goes on. They are not doing what Toronto does and trying to put subways in places like Finch and Sheppard where they are not needed. You don't see the province proposing subways to Barrie.

Yeah the province may not want Toronto's version of the DRL. Frankly I don't blame them. Toronto doesn't even know what they want.

So if Toronto wants to upgrade plans or change priorities, it's not okay. But if the Prov does the same thing it's "sensible"? I agree, electrified RER is great. But the point is that something was planned, and now we're seeing monumental changes to those plans. I've read GO2020 and the original Big Move, and the original plans for GO were sensible and realistic. But I guess since AD2W using diesels isn't as sexy as "electrified RER" (even though it's way more than adequate), the Prov changed their plans. Now the grand plan is more complex, costly, and more likely to see things dropped/delayed. But instead of headlines or anger like we see with Toronto, people are lauding them. Seems like a double standard.

York Region may have those subway plans but many of them like the extension to Wonderland and subways on Major Mackenzie are pretty much fantasies. Wake me up when York Region politicians stand up and demand those subways like we saw Toronto demanding subways on Finch.

As for the the Downtown Relief Line, the Star best says, right now it's a fantasy. Yeah something which people here want us to believe is such a big priority for Toronto is being described as a fantasy:

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2015/12/29/toronto-downtown-relief-line-still-a-fantasy.html

TO never demanded subways on Finch. That was like one proposal from one politician that didn't go anywhere. Our planning department never proposed subways there, unlike what York Region is planning for Line 1.

And look at the takeaway from the article: "The biggest problem is there’s just no money dedicated yet toward building the line." How is that possible? Why can't the Prov use the TC Phase II money promised to us, or some of the money they recently promised for electrified RER (which really did come out of left field)? There is funding to be had, but it seems it's not worth funding. Just like with the EBF streetcar.

 

[Adjei]

What drives me nuts about stories like the one above is this:



Yet a few lines up:




Of course its not on anyone's A-list to fund... there is currently nothing to fund. The last estimate as to the cost of the project is from 3 years ago, based on nothing of substance. (No station locations, no alignment selected, no design work, no public consultation)

What exactly are people expecting to get funding for when no one can say what the DRL is going to look like?

Sure you can say that Smart Track got funding, when we don't know what Smart Track will look like... but look into the funding announcements. None of the funding promised to date has anything to do with Smart Track. The extra stations and Eglinton spur have yet to be funded by any level of government. It's no further along as the DRL at this point.

We are the closest we have ever been to having an actual plan in place for the DRL. At that point, we will have an idea of how much it will cost, and how much to ask for. Until that work is complete, I don't understand the calls to immediately fund the line. They are premature at this point in the process.

None of the funding announcements have anything to do with Smart Track? Are you kidding me? Look at Trudeau's recent funding announcement. He made sure to specifically mention an amount for Go Transit funding and a separate amount for Smart Track:

Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau says his party would invest $2 billion in localized infrastructure funding aimed at improving GO Transit service in the Toronto and Hamilton areas.

Trudeau said his government would also commit to the federal share of the plan, which would see a 22-stop, above-ground rail line linking the city from Scarborough to Etobicoke. Tory has asked the federal government to fund approximately one-third of the $8 billion project.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/election/trudeau-vows-2b-investment-in-go-transit-1.2600926

If Smart Track is so vague and nobody knows what it is, then why is it get funding? The DRL is also vague at this point but no one is committing funding to it. The City made a specific request for funding on behalf of Smart Track but not the DRL. It has nothing to do with not knowing what the DRL is. It has to do with where the priorities lies. The current priority is with Smart Track and not the DRL..

A transit line does not need to be EA ready in order to have funding for it in place. The Scarborough subway is still being studied to determine station location and even alignment but yet it has funding in place. GO RER is still being studied to determine but yet it has funding. A transit line can also have an EA in place with no funding such as the Yonge extension.

Truth of the matter is the DRL is not a priority no matter how many people want to bury their heads in the sand and wish it so. It wasn't a priority for Lastman, Miller, Ford, and now John Tory. It isn't a priority for the province or the feds. The only people who can prioritize it is Toronto and they chose not to.

Steve Munro realizes that and he's telling it like it is. He knows his stuff. The Toronto Star is right. The DRL is a fantasy at this point.

 

[Adjei]

Not trying to rewrite history. I know the DRL history pretty well and have happily spoken about it in depth many times. In the last three decades the biggest supporters of the DRL were Miller/Giamrbone. Yes, it doesn't sound like it. But they got the study started, and made it a point that the DRL will start construction sometime on/after 2019 (i.e in three years, once TC is completed). This is pretty close to where we are now, minus TC being even close to compete or even properly funded. Ford came around and tried to divert some of the pre-established ~$12bn TC funding to upgrade other projects. But he never really discounted the DRL being built thereafter. The problem in both these mayoralties is that the ~$12bn Prov funding was unreliable. How were local level pols supposed to know the Prov can't be trusted?

Tory I don't know what the hell is going on, and it's very fishy. I listened to his radio show and the guy was hardcore supportive of a DRL. And really, it seems very strange for a mayor to support Prov projects as if they were municipal. I can't think of any past politician proposing something similar. Regardless, TO council and Planning can support Prov GO upgrades and a DRL (which we are). They're not mutually exclusive.

​

Again as I mentioned the only reason the DRL came up on the radar was because Toronto felt that the Yonge North subway was going to be built after the Spadina extension and it was gaining traction. Hence they came out supporting the DRL and stating that it needed to be built before the Yonge North extension would be built. Before that the DRL was mostly left to to be talked about on transit blogs. Millior and Guambrone were chasing transit city.

Ford felt that the DRL was so important the stated that he wanted to build subways on Sheppard and Finch of all places before the DRL:

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/10/1...irst-then-downtown-relief-line-mayor-rob-ford

Yeah a real priority for him.

Sure the funding was unreliable. Beggars can't be choosers. You can't expect the province to be spending all the money for transit and dictating how much is spent and where it is spent. If they are having financial difficulties and funding slows, so be it. Toronto should be willing to chip in. Instead of raising new taxes and other sources of revenue to fund transit which they specifically ask these taxing powers from the province, what do they do? You had Rob Ford and his brother insulting and criticizing the province for being tax and spend meanwhile they were cancelling other sources of tax revenue which could have been used for transit like the vehicle registration tax. Even when these taxes were implemented they went into general revenue instead of specifically being used for transit. Everybody from the city manager to others have come out and said that Toronto needs new revenue in the form of new taxes but the politicians don't want to do it. They want someone else to raise taxes so that they can complain while benefiting from all the tax revenue.

Also times have changed. Gone are the days when only Toronto needed new transit in Ontario. You have places like Mississauga, York Region, Brampton, Ottawa, Kitchener and even London now is coming out with the own rapid transit plans. Those places also need transit. It's not just about Toronto. Why doesn't Toronto put up more of their money into transit projects instead of always complaining like they did in Scarborough.

​

But this isn't a joint study - it's an entirely separate one. And if you read Mlinx's report, it's pretty clear they've disregarded our RL criteria. Why is that "supposed to be done"?

Yeah I'm sure Toronto who doesn't look at anything in a regional context would be willing to do a joint study. The same Toronto who are the only one coming out to criticize the GTHA Fare Integration study. They don't look at things from a regional perspective, only what happens inside their borders. It is the job of Metrolinx to examine things on a regional basis. I'm glad they are doing that.

Just like with Lastman's Sheppard stub, what ends up being built is usually a fraction of what was originally planned. Reason: unreliable higher-level funding that tends to get whittled-down and go towards projects with greater political merit. Which is exactly what's happening with the current Libs, but nobody wants to talk about it. MO2020 and the Big Move got all messed up, and Rob Ford had little do with that. It's mostly the Prov's fault for promising the world before an election, then scaling it back, then changing their own plans/priorities.

Ok the funding it unreliable. Why doesn't Toronto grow up and put someone of it's own money instead of always whining about unreliable funding. I'm sure the higher level of governments would be more willing to fund transit if more of Toronto's funding was in place. Kitchener of all places is willing to put up 1/3 of it's own money into its own LRT project. Ottawa too is doing the same. No wonder why those cities are starting to complain. They see Toronto getting free LRT on Eglinton and also on Finch meanwhile they have to cough up 1/3. Is it fair? Yeah blame the province. I'm sure Rob Ford who came and set back transit plans for many years by derailing everything had nothing to do it. It's the province's fault.

Re: the EBF LRT. There's no reason to create taxes. Why? Because the Prov promised it would be funded, and there's still (theoretically) a lot of funding on the table. The support for the line is longstanding and loud, and arguably much greater than SmartTrack. It is not "lukewarm". We've seen higher levels of gov't open up their wallets for unstudied lines on a map, even when these lines are costly high-risk ventures. But not for a shovel-ready 2km streetcar line? That doesn't make sense.

Yes the province promised to fund it. Just like they have also promised to fund the DRL but guess what they haven't yet. If they aren't funding it why doesn't Toronto start? Why don't they show some willingness to put some money into it. Waiting for the province to fund all of your transit needs means you will have to wait longer. Sorry. Beggers can;t be choosers. Which theoretical funding is on the table? The support for the DRL is loud? From who? Is it people on these boards? It sure isn't John Tory the mayor who says his Smart Track can act as a DRL. Sure seems like he is pushing the DRL to the backburner.

So if Toronto wants to upgrade plans or change priorities, it's not okay. But if the Prov does the same thing it's "sensible"? I agree, electrified RER is great. But the point is that something was planned, and now we're seeing monumental changes to those plans. I've read GO2020 and the original Big Move, and the original plans for GO were sensible and realistic. But I guess since AD2W using diesels isn't as sexy as "electrified RER" (even though it's way more than adequate), the Prov changed their plans. Now the grand plan is more complex, costly, and more likely to see things dropped/delayed. But instead of headlines or anger like we see with Toronto, people are lauding them. Seems like a double standard.

Yes sorry that the GO RER which has more value of money is being built and should have been built than more costly subways. It is a better bang for buck. I will pick GO RER which can bring more reliable transit to more places in the GTA than the DRL. Maybe Toronto should prioritize the DRL and push for funding instead of pushing Smart Track and subways on Finch and Sheppard. Go to Europe, systems like S-Bahn and RER are the backbone of their transit systems and it's good that the province and Metrolinx have identified this. GO RER should have been built ages ago. We've spent years chasing useless underground subways in the suburbs.

TO never demanded subways on Finch. That was like one proposal from one politician that didn't go anywhere. Our planning department never proposed subways there, unlike what York Region is planning for Line 1.

I guess it must have been my imagination and Rob Ford wasn't the mayor of Toronto. I guess Mammoliti and other councillors also didn't support this absurd plan. That must also be my imagination. Toronto has proposing the continutation of the subway on Sheppard going west to join Downsview station and also going east to join Scarborough Town Centre both from politicians and also bureaucrats so don't try and make it seem like it is only York Region doing it.

And look at the takeaway from the article: "The biggest problem is there’s just no money dedicated yet toward building the line." How is that possible? Why can't the Prov use the TC Phase II money promised to us, or some of the money they recently promised for electrified RER (which really did come out of left field)? There is funding to be had, but it seems it's not worth funding. Just like with the EBF streetcar.

I already addressed this point. Toronto needs to show that they are willing to put up more of their own money into projects instead of waiting for the province. Put back the vehicle registration tax, put in a hotel tax, toll the Gardiner and DVP. Mature cities like New York, London and many others have tolls, congestion charges and hotel taxes. Toronto needs to learn to mature and stop acting like a little village.

 

[Tuscani01]

None of the funding announcements have anything to do with Smart Track? Are you kidding me? Look at Trudeau's recent funding announcement. He made sure to specifically mention an amount for Go Transit funding and a separate amount for Smart Track:

Except it wasn't that clear cut:

"The investment would be the largest in the history of Canada, Trudeau said. The money would go toward projects like electric GO Train lines, which could also be used as part of Toronto Mayor John Tory's SmartTrack plan."

http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/election/trudeau-vows-2b-investment-in-go-transit-1.2600926

The money is obviously going towards the remaining parts of the Province's rail plan, not Smart Track. The city's share is still needed to fund the stations and Eglinton West extention.

Note what was unfunded in the graphic below... Stouffville Corrdidor improvements, Kitchener Corridor improvements, Central system upgrades. The final two pieces of the puzzle are reliant on the City of Toronto picking up the tab.

 

[Adjei]

I don't get what you are trying to say. Trudeau specifically made the distinction to fund GO Transit to the tune of 2 billion which is separate from the 1/3 federal contribution for Smart Track which he also promised to fund.


Justin Trudeau has followed Stephen Harper’s lead and pledged his support for Mayor John Tory’s SmartTrack plan.

During a campaign stop in Woodbridge, Trudeau promised a Liberal government would pay its share of the $8-billion transit plan.

“It is time to invest now, not two or three elections from now,” he said.

Trudeau also promised to invest in the GO train network and to fully fund the $2-billion federal share of the province’s Regional Express Rail project, which will include the electrification of GO train lines.

The federal cost of SmartTrack has been pegged at around $2.6 billion.
http://www.torontosun.com/2015/10/08/trudeau-promises-to-ante-up-for-smarttrack


Trudeau is promising to fund GO RER to the tune of 2 billion and Smart Track to the tune of 2.67 billion. There is a clear distinction made.

Why is Smart Track which is a vague idea being studied getting this funding while the DRL which is another vague idea not receiving funding. The city has choose to prioritize Smart Track for funding instead of the DRL. It is clear for all to see. Until Toronto chooses to prioritize the DRL, it always be on the backburner.

 

[ssiguy2]

There is one thing that you guys seem to be forgetting. Tory was VERY specific about what he would do if he became mayor and he made Smart Tracks probably the biggest single priority project of his entire campaign and he was voted in on it.

Whether you agree with it or not is not really the issue. He can very truthfully assert that he was given a strong mandate for his policies and the main one was Smart Tracks. We hate politicians because we believe them to be nothing but a bunch of pathological liars so how can we complain when he follows thru on his biggest and most important policy?

Tory, despite his faults, has never struck me as either overtly ideological or illogical. This is why he was the mayor Toronto needed..........he isn't a black or white kind of guy. He realizes that compromise is not a dirty word. He believes that you can still be true to your beliefs and accept feedback and compromise without it being viewed as a character flaw. This is why I believe Smart Tracks will not only go ahead but should go ahead. His belief in the strength of the viability of such a system is strong but is flexible enough to provide changes that are reasonable which is why I think he will he will ditch Eglinton West and instead send the line further North/West along the Kitchener rail corridor.

The idea of Smart Tracks is a sound one and one that he has a strong mandate to implement.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

There is one thing that you guys seem to be forgetting. Tory was VERY specific about what he would do if he became mayor and he made Smart Tracks probably the biggest single priority project of his entire campaign and he was voted in on it.

Whether you agree with it or not is not really the issue. He can very truthfully assert that he was given a strong mandate for his policies and the main one was Smart Tracks. We hate politicians because we believe them to be nothing but a bunch of pathological liars so how can we complain when he follows thru on his biggest and most important policy?

This is a bullshit argument you have tried to put forward here before. One vote does not equal endorsement for the entire suite of policy proposals put forward by a candidate. Could anyone reasonably say that they ever voted for someone and agreed with their platform 100%? Such a world does not exist, there is no electoral system that consists of a menu endorsement ballot of policy proposals.

I voted for Tory, and I voted with faith that he would realize the error of his SmartTrack plan, not be overtly ideological or illogical, and drop it for more sensible plans. Shows you how politicians can be deceitful.

 

[crs1026]

I voted for Tory, and I voted with faith that he would realize the error of his SmartTrack plan, not be overtly ideological or illogical, and drop it for more sensible plans. Shows you how politicians can be deceitful.

Most of us vote for a candidate hoping all the while that some parts of their campaign platform will be forgotten. Tory's problem is - he has branded himself so intensively with ST that dropping it is a political non-starter. Neither the media nor his adversaries would let the public forget the fact if he didn't bring this one to the finish line, or if expert analysis concluded that it isn't a helpful idea after all. Tory may be good at compromise, but he can't fold his tent altogether.

The way out of this is - ST is such a poorly defined, nebulous concept that all one needs to do is put the ST brand name on something - anything - that runs on rails and under wire, and it can be spun as victory.

We need DRL in the funding queue now because all of this funding is at risk as post-election fiscal sanity emerges, or as other parts of Canada need the money more. That's my New Year's prediction, anyways. Look for the spending to be pushed off in time.

I am hopeful that the Relief Line is now on everyone's radar screen well enough that as the various studies report in, the overall picture of ridership and route alternatives can't be assembled without it. And the data will demonstrate the need. That's progress.

- Paul

 

[ssiguy2]

This is a bullshit argument you have tried to put forward here before. One vote does not equal endorsement for the entire suite of policy proposals put forward by a candidate. Could anyone reasonably say that they ever voted for someone and agreed with their platform 100%? Such a world does not exist, there is no electoral system that consists of a menu endorsement ballot of policy proposals.

I voted for Tory, and I voted with faith that he would realize the error of his SmartTrack plan, not be overtly ideological or illogical, and drop it for more sensible plans. Shows you how politicians can be deceitful.

I'll be sure to remind you of this if Trudeau cancels his infrastructure program.

 

[gweed123]

I'll be sure to remind you of this if Trudeau cancels his infrastructure program.

Apples and oranges. Tory's SmartTrack plan was a specific transit solution proposal, with details that need to be ironed out. Trudeau's infrastructure plan is just a cheque writing program. There are only a very limited number of federal projects on which the infrastructure plan is going to have any kind of input on what gets built. For SmartTrack/RER, all Trudeau did was pledge federal funds to whatever Metrolinx decides to build.

And Trudeau won't cancel the infrastructure program. His entire campaign was centred around deficit spending to finance infrastructure. Tory was largely centred around "I'm not Rob Ford". SmartTrack was a component of his campaign, not the centrepiece (despite what some people on this board will have us try to believe).

 

[crs1026]

And Trudeau won't cancel the infrastructure program. His entire campaign was centred around deficit spending to finance infrastructure.

No , he won't cancel it... but the full amount may not be spent and a greater proportion may go to, say, Alberta, where the unemployment rate is higher.

Tory was largely centred around "I'm not Rob Ford". SmartTrack was a component of his campaign, not the centrepiece (despite what some people on this board will have us try to believe).

That's historically accurate, but it's not the end of the story. See http://www.torontosun.com/2015/12/25/smarttrack-on-track-tory for instance. The media have decided that ST delivery is a key performance measure for his tenure as mayor, and Mr Tory can't stop himself from repeatedly telling reporters that ST is on track.... and offering definitive views on details that are very much up in the air.

He'd be a lot smarter to put down the paint brush and stay out of the corner.

- Paul

 

[gweed123]

No , he won't cancel it... but the full amount may not be spent and a greater proportion may go to, say, Alberta, where the unemployment rate is higher.

He may, but I don't think he'd screw over Ontario, considering that's what pushed him into majority territory. He'd be shooting himself in the foot for 2019. I'd think that if Alberta got anything extra in that regard, it would probably be new money.

That's historically accurate, but it's not the end of the story. See http://www.torontosun.com/2015/12/25/smarttrack-on-track-tory for instance. The media have decided that ST delivery is a key performance measure for his tenure as mayor, and Mr Tory can't stop himself from repeatedly telling reporters that ST is on track.... and offering definitive views on details that are very much up in the air.

He'd be a lot smarter to put down the paint brush and stay out of the corner.

- Paul

That I'll agree with. He's made a political miscalculation by being so definitive on SmartTrack. If he'd sat back a bit more and let the experts make the determinations instead of injecting his opinion as fact, he'd be much better off in the long run. Now any change that happens to SmartTrack will look like he lost a battle.

 

[44 North]

On the topic of ST, I wanted to give a rant of sorts. It's not really worth debating, more just my opinion on the whole thing, some of which I've written before:

It's easy to piece the the SmartTrack puzzle together using headlines and quotes pulled out of newspapers to make a rudimentary conclusion about the proposal. But my view on ST is that there's been waaay more going on behind the scenes than people realize. That is: big money, big gov't, PR, advertising, strategists, market research, etc. From whom? None other than the Liberal government. I believe it's been planned for some time as a Liberal panacea project - one worked on by all three levels of gov't. Trudeau, Wynne, and Tory (yes we don't have a party system in TO and he's not an actual party member, but it's apparent that he's aligned with them and can be loosely considered a municipal Liberal leader).

And SmartTrack is in fact a good idea, in theory:

• it fast-tracks an unplanned and costly RER rail upgrade to Markham Centre - which was originally supposed to be AD2W (this makes developers/donors/voters happy)
• it at least somewhat addresses waterfront transit/development (again, happy developers/donors)
• it completes the Eglinton Crosstown Phase II, and brings it to Sauga (i.e happy developers/donors/voters)
• it fulfills the promise of electrified rail on the Kitchener corridor
• it's advertised as a municipal line (when really it's all Prov); so now it has TO funding a major component
• it's part of the Prov RER grand plan, and may very well be the only portion of the RER promise realized (similar to the whittling-down of previous grand plans like MO2020, GO2020, BigMove, TISAP, BigMove2.0)
• it has the appearance of being a better (i.e quicker, cheaper, easier) "Relief Line"; since the original DRTES proposal is a costly subway project nobody wants to fund and which wins few votes
• depending on how fares are costed during modelling, it can (theoretically) destroy the business case for a Scarb Subway - thus allowing the Prov and Feds to eventually claw-back their promised SSE funding (prob to divert to ST)

One magical line, supported by all three levels of the same government. It's a cure-all. But here's the problem: it's not one unified line, rather three separate projects. But that's not sexy enough to sell, so why not give it a catchy name (while also giving the appearance to John Q voter that it's a quintessential non-political single project). A metro-wide 'surface subway regional relief line'...SmartTrack.

Yes it can be argued that this is solely Tory's plan, one which he commandeered from a preexisting, developer-backed proposal from a few years back. But I think that's more of a coincidence than anything. The speed and financial support for SmartTrack from the Prov and Feds just makes it seem like there was more going on behind closed doors prior to its initial election proposal. And if anything, the fact that it was a 2013 report only lends credence to the proposal's credibility by making it seem less like a typical 'napkin plan'.

***
TL;DR SmartTrack is a fishy plan. And I have no proof to back my theory that there's been established behind-the-scenes support for this proposal by all three levels of Liberal gov't. But for me it's the only thing that makes sense. There's no denying that it's suspicious, and somewhat unique - particularly when considering that before Tory threw his hat in the ring he was a diehard DRL supporter.

IMO there should be no comparison between ST and other election promises like Ford's Sheppard idea (i.e to extend a subway line which was once a true priority, which remains an unfinished stub, and which had significant support across the city). Yes it was a boneheaded platform to pursue, but it wasn't nearly as fishy as ST. And plus, people didn't really vote for Tory because of ST (and it seems to me few even know what the heck it even is). Whereas with Ford most or all the polls I've seen said his transit plan was the #1 reason he was elected. Either way, ST is an interesting proposal to discuss and watch - although I'm still waiting on a sleuth journalist to uncover the truth behind it

 

[crs1026]

On the topic of ST, I wanted to give a rant of sorts. It's not really worth debating, more just my opinion on the whole thing,

Rant? Heck, it's one of the more lucid observations by UT standards, and makes some points well worth discussing. I'm just a little leery of extending the discussion here on the DRL forum. I will leave this here for now, but maybe it belongs elsewhere.

It's easy to piece the the SmartTrack puzzle together using headlines and quotes pulled out of newspapers to make a rudimentary conclusion about the proposal. But my view on ST is that there's been waaay more going on behind the scenes than people realize.

Quite possibly. My take on Tory's original motive for ST
- he needed to present a transit platform for the election that differentiated him from Ford, Stinz, etc
- his corporate background made him an expert in marketing and branding - note that his platform has a brand name, as opposed to an acronym or just a "I will build a transit line on X Street" promise - he's clearly smarter at branding than the other candidates
- the developer's original paper suggested something that was out of the box, challenged standing assumptions, and was potentially cheaper than his rivals' platform....what's the down side of taking that viewpoint?
- it positioned him as a 416 champion fighting against a provincial 905 bias in transit planning

That is: big money, big gov't, PR, advertising, strategists, market research, etc.

Quite possibly. Your list does not include any expertise relevant to the core of transit building - ie urban planners, transportation engineers, civil engineers, railroaders, transit operators, etc. That's ST's huge flaw IMHO, great on sizzle but wouldn't know a good steak if he chewed on it. Ultimately, ST is still a napkin proposal. Every new Tory pronouncement underlines this. Hopefully the staff studies arrive soon to put some meat in the discussion.

From whom? None other than the Liberal government. I believe it's been planned for some time as a Liberal panacea project - one worked on by all three levels of gov't. Trudeau, Wynne, and Tory (yes we don't have a party system in TO and he's not an actual party member, but it's apparent that he's aligned with them and can be loosely considered a municipal Liberal leader).

Very plausible, considering that moderate, bland, Davis-style bland, Progressive Conservatism isn't where the right sits, either provincially (Hudak lost by sounding meanspirited) or federally (funny how the pundits are still asking whether the Conservatives got the message about why they lost). Despite his blue roots, the Liberals undoubtedly see Tory as a potential ally or outright recruit. Tory has done little to distance himself from them, although maybe for Tory it's an alliance of convenience and not conviction.

IMO there should be no comparison between ST and other election promises like Ford's Sheppard idea (i.e to extend a subway line which was once a true priority, which remains an unfinished stub, and which had significant support across the city). Yes it was a boneheaded platform to pursue, but it wasn't nearly as fishy as ST.

I'm suspicious that Tory has flirted with, and may be still clinging to the hope that, ST will be proven to make all of these rival subway proposals - Line 2 Extension, Sheppard extension, and DRL - irrelevant. If true, he would really save the day - a huge cost savings.

We on UT may feel we know better, given we place greater reliance on studies and analysis. But never underestimate the ability of politicians to stifle unfavourable staff findings - this could be the year certain high profile planners leave town.

Re Sheppard - in spite of all past arguments and studies, I'm still personally convinced that a single seamless extra-fast heavy transit line across the top of the city has enormous potential and is worth building on a "they will come" basis. The old Davis era plan for a transit line across the hydro corridor around Finch had huge intuitive appeal. The 401 is jammed with cars in the same route - surely a transit line up there would sell itself to drivers. All the current maps show a transit system which is fundamentally a big 'U', and that's in contrast to the volume of traffic across 401, 407, and arterial roads up there.

Either way, ST is an interesting proposal to discuss and watch - although I'm still waiting on a sleuth journalist to uncover the truth behind it

Agreed. To try and get this back towards DRL, the heart of the ST conspiracy theory in my view is that politicians at all levels are leery of funding a DRL, which will be especially expensive given the tunnelling thru downtown - and which isn't sexy given that all the potential voters think they already have a subway (the Yonge line). A silver bullet that lets them defer or scratch DRL is likely what all levels secretly dream for. They will let the next generation of politicians deal with Yonge line congestion....if we let them.

- Paul

 

[rbt]

I'm suspicious that Tory has flirted with, and may be still clinging to the hope that, ST will be proven to make all of these rival subway proposals - Line 2 Extension, Sheppard extension, and DRL - irrelevant. If true, he would really save the day - a huge cost savings.

If Smart Track were targeting 3 minute peak frequencies with 2000 person capacity trains and avoided Union Station (tunnel between King/Queen) then it probably could replace a number of those projects with appropriate bus-route changes and station design. The location of the arms are fairly well located to intercept numerous feeder bus-routes.

The target (AFAIK) of 15 minute peak frequencies with shortish trains (1200 person capacity) makes Smart Track pretty unusable as a backbone line. It's capacity will be roughly equal to the existing Finch bus.