Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[Tuscani01]

It just seems premature to me to act like the Relief Line was stopped or cancelled while they are determining the route, studies are under way and haven't asked for funding yet.

I agree. This isn't a matter of choosing one project over another. We've known that RER has been in the planning stages for ages, the routes already exist, and have been undergoing upgrading in anticipation of RER service. This is why Smart Track is getting all of the attention today. Its much further along in the planning process than the DRL.

That's not saying that planning the DRL has stopped because the city is focusing on Smart Track. There is nothing to suggest that this is true. In fact, one of my friends is working at the city of TO on the DRL plan. It's been going on throughout the election, and after the election. Nothing has stopped. It's moving towards finding an alignment and recommended stations. Once that is done, a cost will be attached to the plan, and the city will be able to request funding from other levels of government.

 

[Adjei]

No, nobody has voted against any funding. However, there is a very finite pool of funds at all 3 levels of government. The fact that more municipal funding will be going to pay for what the Province has already agreed to fund is not a good sign for the Relief Line. Here's to hoping that someone makes it a political priority (Adam Vaughan? Trudeau? Toronto Council? Who knows?), because that's how transit works in this town.

In order for any transit project to be built, you need political support for it and as you mentioned for it to be a political priority. I don't see any political support for the Relief Line. When was the last time you heard any politician advocating for the Relief Line, you hardly hear anyone talk about it. It's now pushed the backburner. You can do all the studies you want without political support, nothing happens with it. Look at how the Scarborough Subway was able to come alive when it got support from the provincial Liberals and also Rob Ford, Karen Stintz and Toronto city councillors.

 

[Adjei]

I agree. This isn't a matter of choosing one project over another. We've known that RER has been in the planning stages for ages, the routes already exist, and have been undergoing upgrading in anticipation of RER service. This is why Smart Track is getting all of the attention today. Its much further along in the planning process than the DRL.

That's not saying that planning the DRL has stopped because the city is focusing on Smart Track. There is nothing to suggest that this is true. In fact, one of my friends is working at the city of TO on the DRL plan. It's been going on throughout the election, and after the election. Nothing has stopped. It's moving towards finding an alignment and recommended stations. Once that is done, a cost will be attached to the plan, and the city will be able to request funding from other levels of government.

How has the RER been in the planning stages for ages. The concept of RER with the 15 minute service and electrification was introduced by the Liberals during the 2014 election campaign. There was talk of two way all day service as part of the next wave projects but it was not as extensive and electrified as the RER. It did not have much political support. If you even watch Metrolinx board meetings from before the election, they hardly mention anything about RER or even the GO expansion, it may have briefly being mentioned as part of the next wave projects but now watch their meetings it's all about RER and that's their main focus now. This is all because of the political support it received. Political support the Relief Line doesn't have. They can do all the studies, station recommendations, and alignment but without political support it's going nowhere.

 

[torontologist]

That finite amount of funding is now the largest amount of funding ever available for Toronto and Canadian municipalities. There is more than enough to fund the DRL if a funding request goes out in the next few years.

Yes, but that funding has to be spread across the country. "Old Toronto" is fairly safe for the Liberals (unless the NDP challenge them), so don't expect the Relief Line and RER/SmartTrack to both receive a significant funding commitment. Not to mention the fact the RL would require a municipal contribution that would have to be a tax increase, and Tory does not care enough about the Relief Line to champion a tax increase. (I'd love for him to prove me wrong!)

It just seems premature to me to act like the Relief Line was stopped or cancelled while they are determining the route, studies are under way and haven't asked for funding yet.

Woaaaaah, I never said it was cancelled! The fight hasn't even started yet! I was just pointing out what it's up against.

I agree. This isn't a matter of choosing one project over another. We've known that RER has been in the planning stages for ages, the routes already exist, and have been undergoing upgrading in anticipation of RER service. This is why Smart Track is getting all of the attention today. Its much further along in the planning process than the DRL.

In what sense is SmartTrack further along than the Relief Line? My understanding is that both projects are currently developing alignments. From what I've gathered, the Relief Line alignment is pretty much set, and they're just waiting for the Eglinton West portion of SmartTrack to be declared dead by the powers-that-be so that they can actually work on practical alignments. Both projects are dependent on data from a ridership model that is currently being developed at UofT. Things are at a pause until the spring.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

"Old Toronto" is fairly safe for the Liberals (unless the NDP challenge them)

Old Toronto, and the City of Toronto is by no measure safe for the federal Liberals. Remember, this was the result of the 2011 federal election:

If Toronto requests Relief Line funding and the Liberals refuse to provide it, there's a very good chance that both the NDP and CPC will step up and offer funding. Considering how important this project is, and how many ridings it could travel through (Sheppard to Dundas West), those commitments from opposition parties might be enough to remove Liberal MPs from those ridings.

 

[crs1026]

The Relief line needs to build a political constituency.

One would think that anyone who is affected by Line 1 congestion would buy in. The risk is if the constituency that emerges is people who think "when everyone else switches to the DRL, My commute down Yonge will be easier". The VIVA study is proof of this - there's an assumption (a bit entitled, IMHO) that Yonge will carry me, and the others will go away. So the better constituency has to be people who realise they need to use it, and hence demand it. I doubt if many people in that population realise it affects them.

Ironically, the constituency that is most harmed by Yonge overcrowding is Scarboro. At least North Yorkers can squeeze on board. If one wanted to be a real political s**t disturber, one would tell Scarberians "you can have your subway, but you have to walk to work from Yonge and Bloor because the Yonge and Steeles riders will have filled the Yonge trains before you get to Yonge. And we don't love you enough to give you a way to get all the way downtown."

Just sayin'.

- Paul

 

[MisterF]

How has the RER been in the planning stages for ages. The concept of RER with the 15 minute service and electrification was introduced by the Liberals during the 2014 election campaign. There was talk of two way all day service as part of the next wave projects but it was not as extensive and electrified as the RER.

Yes and no. RER was introduced with the Big Move back in 2008. It wasn't as extensive as the current plan and it was just called express rail but high frequencies and electrification have been part of the plan for years. The plan mentions frequencies as high as 5 minutes.

In what sense is SmartTrack further along than the Relief Line? My understanding is that both projects are currently developing alignments. From what I've gathered, the Relief Line alignment is pretty much set, and they're just waiting for the Eglinton West portion of SmartTrack to be declared dead by the powers-that-be so that they can actually work on practical alignments. Both projects are dependent on data from a ridership model that is currently being developed at UofT. Things are at a pause until the spring.

The idea is that Smarttrack would get rolled into the RER system. What John Tory proposed is basically RER, just with his own brand attached. The issue of GO fares vs TTC fares will be moot assuming we ever get fare integration figured out.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The Relief line needs to build a political constituency.

One would think that anyone who is affected by Line 1 congestion would buy in. The risk is if the constituency that emerges is people who think "when everyone else switches to the DRL, My commute down Yonge will be easier". The VIVA study is proof of this - there's an assumption (a bit entitled, IMHO) that Yonge will carry me, and the others will go away. So the better constituency has to be people who realise they need to use it, and hence demand it. I doubt if many people in that population realise it affects them.

Ironically, the constituency that is most harmed by Yonge overcrowding is Scarboro. At least North Yorkers can squeeze on board. If one wanted to be a real political s**t disturber, one would tell Scarberians "you can have your subway, but you have to walk to work from Yonge and Bloor because the Yonge and Steeles riders will have filled the Yonge trains before you get to Yonge. And we don't love you enough to give you a way to get all the way downtown."

Just sayin'.

- Paul

The Relief Line will reduce commute times from east of Yonge by up to 50%, will reduce commute times from Scarbrough by up to 35%, will reduce crowding on Yonge by a third wil reduce BD Line crowding by a quarter and will reduce the number of transfers by westbound Line 2 customers at B-Y station by 40%. This is a project that will have significant benefits for people who live far beyond the vicinity of the RL corridor.

 

[crs1026]

The Relief Line will reduce commute times from east of Yonge by up to 50%, will reduce commute times from Scarbrough by up to 35%, will reduce crowding on Yonge by a third wil reduce BD Line crowding by a quarter and will reduce the number of transfers by westbound Line 2 customers at B-Y station by 40%. This is a project that will have significant benefits for people who live far beyond the vicinity of the RL corridor.

That's a bunch of positives.

I could have worded that a little better - "I doubt if many people in that population realize just how much benefit they will get from it". Or the corollary - "I doubt if many people in that population realise just how much their ride is gonna suck if we don't build it".

- Paul

 

[TheTigerMaster]

That's a bunch of positives.

I could have worded that a little better - "I doubt if many people in that population realize just how much benefit they will get from it". Or the corollary - "I doubt if many people in that population realise just how much their ride is gonna suck if we don't build it".

- Paul

Yeah I was agreeing with you actually. Awareness needs to be raised about how impactful the Relief Line will be.

 

[Tuscani01]

Yes, but that funding has to be spread across the country. "Old Toronto" is fairly safe for the Liberals (unless the NDP challenge them), so don't expect the Relief Line and RER/SmartTrack to both receive a significant funding commitment. Not to mention the fact the RL would require a municipal contribution that would have to be a tax increase, and Tory does not care enough about the Relief Line to champion a tax increase. (I'd love for him to prove me wrong!)

In what sense is SmartTrack further along than the Relief Line? My understanding is that both projects are currently developing alignments. From what I've gathered, the Relief Line alignment is pretty much set, and they're just waiting for the Eglinton West portion of SmartTrack to be declared dead by the powers-that-be so that they can actually work on practical alignments. Both projects are dependent on data from a ridership model that is currently being developed at UofT. Things are at a pause until the spring.

1) Yes, it will be spread across the country, but it still represents a massive chunk of money that will be available to Toronto on top of the money already put towards Smart Track. The Liberal promise of additional funding for transit goes above and beyond what Toronto got for Smart Track/RER.

2) Smart Track/RER is further along in the sense that the corridor already exists and has already been undergoing prep-work to make it happen. The route is mostly existing track. The only piece of Smart Track that isn't there yet is the Eglinton spur, which looks like it may not even make it into the final plan. The DRL has had no construction to date, not even pre-construction or utility preparation. The route isn't selected, and station locations have not been decided.

 

[Rainforest]

The Relief line needs to build a political constituency.

One would think that anyone who is affected by Line 1 congestion would buy in. The risk is if the constituency that emerges is people who think "when everyone else switches to the DRL, My commute down Yonge will be easier". The VIVA study is proof of this - there's an assumption (a bit entitled, IMHO) that Yonge will carry me, and the others will go away. So the better constituency has to be people who realise they need to use it, and hence demand it. I doubt if many people in that population realise it affects them.

I don't really see how the first constituency is worse than the second. Both groups are going to benefit from DRL.

Ironically, the constituency that is most harmed by Yonge overcrowding is Scarboro. At least North Yorkers can squeeze on board. If one wanted to be a real political s**t disturber, one would tell Scarberians "you can have your subway, but you have to walk to work from Yonge and Bloor because the Yonge and Steeles riders will have filled the Yonge trains before you get to Yonge. And we don't love you enough to give you a way to get all the way downtown."

Not sure, because:
1) The same conditions apply to riders coming to East York.
2) Not everyone travels south of Bloor.
3) Those who travel south of Bloor in the morning peak, sometimes have to skip a train or two, and often squeezed once they get onto the train; but it is still a small part of total commute. A major nuisance, but not a defining factor.

 

[crs1026]

I don't really see how the first constituency is worse than the second. Both groups are going to benefit from DRL.

As a political constituency, both groups' voices are needed. But I wonder if people in the DRL's catchment group - for the upper portion of the line - have considered the benefits. Many currently take the bus over to Yonge, and are OK with that. Reducing crowding will appeal, but there may be a difference in mentality of "nice to have" versus "must have". The "must have" voice needs to be as large as possible.

Not sure, because:
3) Those who travel south of Bloor in the morning peak, sometimes have to skip a train or two, and often squeezed once they get onto the train; but it is still a small part of total commute. A major nuisance, but not a defining factor.

It's a problem already, yes. If the ridership from the north increases, the problem grows more. It won't be a one-train wait any more. The issue is, at what volume does it become a dealbreaker for the daily commute. It's an issue for everyone coming from the east. The capacity on the west end is a bit more benign, because the volume coming down the Spadina line isn't as large (so far) and transfers at St George are still fairly painless.

- Paul

 

[Rainforest]

As a political constituency, both groups' voices are needed. But I wonder if people in the DRL's catchment group - for the upper portion of the line - have considered the benefits. Many currently take the bus over to Yonge, and are OK with that. Reducing crowding will appeal, but there may be a difference in mentality of "nice to have" versus "must have". The "must have" voice needs to be as large as possible.

Now I get your point.

I guess part of the problem is that residents living in the potential catchment area of the DRL's upper portion cannot be sure when (and if) the line actually reaches them. The existing proposals place the north-eastern terminus of DRL at Danforth, Eglinton, or Sheppard. Obviously, if it ends at Danforth, fewer people will have a reason to use DRL instead of Yonge subway.

There may be two approaches here. I am not sure which will work better.

One is to present DRL Long as a single project; that will be very expensive but will have a wider support base, as the upstream folks will be reasonably assured that the subway will reach their area.

Another approach is to start with Phase I to Danforth only; it will have much less support but will cost considerably less. Once the subway is somehow funded and gets to Danforth, it will be a lot easier to fund an extension further north. The same councillors that only tepidly support DRL now, will turn into enthusiastic supporters of the extension, as the extension will directly affect their consituents.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Present an exact route to show where the stations are going to be and the concept becomes more real as opposed to an abstraction. And how those specific intersections will benefit.