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Toronto/Montreal comparisons (ain't pretty...)

My two cents.....

I think we have to accept that Toronto is not a very attractive looking, not a very scenic looking city. We've torn down most of our older, historic buildings, we have no real history that grabs the attention of the world and there are clearly others that find Toronto boring. What Toronto does well, is to be a very livable city.

I've known too many people from elsewhere but especially those who've traveled abroad from here that have told me that Toronto pales against so many other cities.
 
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I find the one thing that really sets Montreal apart are the larger areas almost completely comprised of historic buildings. This creates a sense of history and atmosphere that's hard to match. Many positive impressions of the city are derived largely from this feature.

Toronto still has a decent stock of historic structures, they're just mixed in with buildings from other eras.

One of the benefits of Montreal's economic downturn in the 20th century is that a lot of historic buildings and areas were saved. In Toronto, 'progress' meant much of the architectural past was eliminated.

Had roles been reversed, we might very well be discussing Toronto as the city with the most impressive historic architecture.
 
I would say that historic buildings are but one aspect. Another aspect is scale and public spaces. Torontos public realm is ugly, dirty and mostly unloved. There are old rotting wooden poles along main streets and few large trees. There is a lot of concrete and high rise but very little space in between buildings. Everything is jammed together. In Montreal, the scale is smaller and more humane. The streets are wider, greener, and the street scape more beautiful. This creates a calmer and more intimate atmosphere. Toronto is an urban jungle. It can be a very stressful place. It feels hurried and congested. Slowly the public spaces are improving with some of the new waterfront and street reconstruction projects such as Bloor. However, Tonronto has a long way to go to reach a point where we can say that our streets or public spaces are attractive or even pretty.
 
For me what's interesting is how my foreign friends view the cities. While I have friends that find nether city compelling, even those friends find there's probably more to do in Toronto (3 day versus 48 hour) than Montreal. I find friends from NYC tend to prefer Toronto but friends from the Midwest or South tend to prefer Montreal.

Canadians seem to prefer Montreal but I think that has a lot to do with Canadians finding the 2 solitudes thing interesting but generally being the only people in the world that do.

I find it funny when people find Toronto boring or uninteresting. But preference is precisely that. I was surprised how much Asia did not interest me in the least and I found Italy a complete bore (but boy can the men -peacocks all- there dress and pull it together), while Germany which I never had any real interest in ever visiting came as a revelation.

I think both Toronto and Montreal are great places to live. But not necessarily must see tourism experiences. Very few places are.

I also don't think they're necessarily comparable as cities anymore. They are in different leagues now and frankly, it's Toronto that needs to up its game and stop pretending it can get away with the same stuff it could 30 years ago. Montreal just doesn't have the same pressures and for the foreseeable future can really coast on what it's been giving out for the same period.
 
Isn't what people (tkip, lead82, syn,...) are saying so true? I don't want to accept that but after traveling back and forth between Montreal and Toronto, I think what they're saying is SO TRUE!
But another truth that I believe in is Toronto's not born to be a total bore or a big ugly. Some people are "born this way", but Toronto's definitely not born "that" way. lol

Let's say Montreal is really a perfect place that some of us worship or jealous about. With enough money and some great architects and engineers, we can recreate entire downtown Montreal here in the city of Toronto. I believe even the landscapes(rivers and mountains) are copyable!?
All I'm saying here is Toronto CAN become a splendid city, it just needs to meet some truly great people with great ideas and visions.
 
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If your lost in montreal it can be very confusing fortunately its almost as densely populated as toronto.. unfortunately many french canadians don't wish to help english speaking canadians. A lot of the time when you ask for directions you get a cut of the mill response in a french accent of course.... " i don't speak english " .

THIS IS A LIE!!

I have a friend from montreal she told me that everyone learns how to speak and write english perfectly. So don't fall for it!
 
I mentioned before having a friend that was from Quebec who said that people in Montreal were full of attitude.

She told me that people in the city are fully bilingual but many francophones don't like speaking english so they give people a hard time. She said people in Toronto were generally more pleasant and easier to deal with. Interestingly enough, she use to work with clients from France on the phone while still living in Quebec and said they were extremely rude and called her french "gutter french".

I've also known several people that have gone to Montreal on trips and basically got treated like dirt because they spoke english.
 
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tkip said:
My two cents.....

I think we have to accept that Toronto is not a very attractive looking, not a very scenic looking city. We've torn down most of our older, historic buildings, we have no real history that grabs the attention of the world and there are clearly others that find Toronto boring. What Toronto does well, is to be a very livable city.

I've known too many people from elsewhere but especially those who've traveled abroad from here that have told me that Toronto pales against so many other cities.
Click to expand...

Why must we 'accept' anything? Why not look at what other places do better and learn from it?

As for a historical centre is it really so inconceivable that this couldn't exist in what is currently 'Old town' Toronto? If you imagine the potential of the Parliament site in the east and an expanded St. Lawrence Market in the west, along with careful preservation and the right urban planning for everything in between, you can get a glimpse of what could possibly take form as a historical core, even with all the more modern in-fill. This all takes perspective, vision and planning, however, which is where Toronto does fall down on the job. Squandering the potential of the Parliament site in favour of more condos would be a huge mistake and a sign of our blinkered motivation, which would be a shame. So this is where a comparison with Montreal becomes more constructive, and where a 'we might as well accept that we'll never be better' attitude starts to diminish potential.
 
NO PRIDE? or JUST FOOLISH?

tkip said:
I mentioned before having a friend that was from Quebec who said that people in Montreal were full of attitude.

She told me that people in the city are fully bilingual but many francophones don't like speaking english so they give people a hard time. She said people in Toronto were generally more pleasant and easier to deal with. Interestingly enough, she use to work with clients from France on the phone while still living in Quebec and said they were extremely rude and called her french "gutter french".

I've also known several people that have gone to Montreal on trips and basically got treated like dirt because they spoke english.
Click to expand...

Its the whole anglophone and francophone BS! ... most or all of them speak english.. its pathetic that they wont help out a fellow canadian.. where is their sense of pride?
 
As an anglophone I find that les hosers warm up to me immediately once I dazzle them with my French... all of a sudden they seem to love Toronto and can't wait to visit because they've heard so many good things, le etc., le etc. We can all get touchy about these things which are pretty petty really but usually it just takes somebody to be the bigger person and show a little understanding.
 
I find the francophones in Quebec City to be the most pleasant people in the province. They are very warm and welcoming.
The anglophones in Montreal are the coldest and rudest bunch.

Also, to end the discussion, Montreal is a better tourist city BUT Toronto is a much better city to live in. Pick your flavour.
 
Isaachan01 said:
Its the whole anglophone and francophone BS! ... most or all of them speak english.. its pathetic that they wont help out a fellow canadian.. where is their sense of pride?
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Of course the context is that their ancestors were treated like garbage by the anglo establishment for a couple of hundred years before the quiet revolution, and it's within the memory of many of them that the CEO of CN Rail, then a federal crown corporation headquartered in Montreal, said (in English) that there were no senior quebecois CN executives because he couldn't find any qualified candidates. I suspect you'll still get a lot further speaking English in Montreal than speaking French in Toronto, and if you can't be bothered to learn a bit of the language of a city you're visiting then maybe you should confine your travels to English-speaking locations.
 
Isaachan01 said:
Its the whole anglophone and francophone BS! ... most or all of them speak english.. its pathetic that they wont help out a fellow canadian.. where is their sense of pride?
Click to expand...

When I moved to Montreal, I went to the Mount Royal library one afternoon. (Mount Royal is an artsy part of the east downtown core) The library was pretty busy and there were 5 people working near the main desk area. I asked the woman serving customers, in French, if she spoke English. She said NO! I asked the guy beside her, if he spoke English. Again, I got the same response, NO! I asked again, "not even a little?" NO, he replied. So I asked loudly but politely, "is there anybody working here who speaks English" and nobody said a word to me. They just all looked away. I thought is it possible that nobody (university educated) working at a downtown library, speaks a bit of English?

A stranger in the library, heard me and came over to help me but nobody working in the library, would lift a finger to help me. The funny thing is, months later I was at that same library, and the guy who works there, who told me he speaks no English, was talking on the phone. Guess what language he was talking? PERFECT ENGLISH! I was pissed and should have said something but I didn't. These people are paid to serve the public, not play politics.

This kind of thing happens every now and then but most Montrealers are cool with Anglophones. They really do try to be helpful and nice but there is always this us and them, kind of vibe. Lots of Anglo stereotypes still remain. They call the English "Square Heads" lol, and I think they really believe that. (meaning the English are boring and closed minded) I always said the French were hard-headed and stubborn as hell. (well, at least the ones I was friends with, including my sweet but hard-headed French boyfriend)

It's best to stay clear of politics, language and saying your from Toronto, when talking with French Canadians. Even the ones who have never been here, told me they hated Toronto. Yep, they were NEVER in Toronto, yet they knew exactly what it was like. I was told a number of times, Toronto is so prudish, "the strippers can't even take off their G-strings". When I told them, that wasn't true, they'd say, "well that's what I heard" and keep arguing. It's like banging your head against a wall. After a while, you just give in and say very little.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Quebecers and their hard heads. I just learned, sometimes you just have to know when to keep your mouth shut.
 
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Ontario is so far behind Quebec when it comes to sexuality, though. In my experience girls from Quebec are a blast, whereas the majority of girls who grew up in Ontario are generally frightened by the idea of sex. I swear people in this province (and most of North America and Asia) think you can get pregnant with a kiss.
 
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