Toronto in decline..... (Back in MY day we had respect!)

[MisterF]

Also, to be fair, in contrast to the 'how y'all doin'/come back now ya here!'-type hyper friendliness that is par for the course in many parts of the States, Toronto's lacklustre standards of customer service, to put it mildly, must seem unbelievably cold and unfriendly to a Texan. I notice this myself when I come back from frequent trips to the US. Even in larger cities like Chicago and NYC the customer is still king and deserving of respect, for the most part. There are always exceptions of course but in general I find that Canadian attitudes towards customer service tend to follow a European tradition rather than an American one.

As usual I suspect we're somewhere in between the US and Europe. In many countries their customer service is much colder than here.

But either way, the friendliness of customer service has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not a city is in decline. This whole thread is ridiculous.

 

[Tewder]

True. We probably wont objectively know if we are in decline now or not for about another 20 or so years. It's fun to muse though.

 

[ShonTron]

The Four Horsemen of Toronto's apocalypse are the casino, the Gigamall, the maximum security prison, and the toxic waste conversion plant...Woodbine Live! could be the first, the Eaton Centre revamp could be the second, and the G20 prep & fences could be the third, but that's as far as it goes

I'll have you know, Scarberian, that I had no problems operating a city with all four horsemen, just placate the police union with more police stations around said casino, the giga-mall was located far beyond the city centre at a freeway junction, the prison and toxic waste plants right on the border with the suburb. I liked having the variety of buildings, and all the extra subways I could afford was well worth it.

 

[SimonP]

The Financial Post has an article today titled Toronto Rising giving a rosy picture of the future of Toronto's business establishment:

The question is, can Canada’s newfound status as a model of banking efficiency, strength and probity help transform Toronto into a top-tier financial centre — maybe not as big and powerful as New York or London but perhaps as important as Hong Kong, Singapore or Zurich?

That’s what many in the industry are betting. And it won’t all be about Canada’s boy scout approach to banking. Ultimately it will be two attractions that have throughout history acted like magnets for international capital: low taxes and fair regulation.

“Canada’s economy and financial system has never looked so good to the rest of the world,†said Don Coxe, strategy advisor to BMO Capital Markets, who is based in Chicago.

In many ways, the stars have been aligning for nearly 20 years for Canada’s, and Toronto’s, time in the sun.

 

[cfloryan]

No Toronto is not in decline, although western society (of which Toronto is a part) is in moral decline.

 

[MisterF]

True. We probably wont objectively know if we are in decline now or not for about another 20 or so years. It's fun to muse though.

By any objective measure we know now that the city is not in decline.

 

[CityPainter]

We see what we want to see. If people want to believe Toronto is a city in decline, they will believe it.

Personally, when I first came downtown 15 years ago I remember the homeless problem as being much worse. I was regularly followed and verbally threatened by drug addicts. I remember the tattered storefronts at Yonge and Dundas, the drug dealers operating out in the open, bars and restaurants so clogged with smoke you couldn't enjoy them. I remember regular shootings downtown, including by the cops. I had to walk 40 minutes to find a tiny rip-off grocery store. Nobody cycled as a form of transportation. There were vast surface parking lots on every block.

The transformation I've seen since then, at least in the downtown, has been remarkable and almost universally positive. The redevelopment and intensification of new downtown neighbourhoods is a great thing, from my perspective, with infill condos and loft conversions attracting hundreds of great amenities like grocery stores, farmers markets, restaurants, cafes, and coffee shops. Younger people are more engaged in city culture than they were before, too: witness the rise of sites like this one, and Spacing Magazine, Torontoist, cycling culture, etc.

For some reason some people just love the idea that this city (or society, or Canada, or North America, or Human Civilization) is "going down the drain" and nothing is as good as it was 5, 10, 20, or 100 years ago. It appeals to something in human nature. But it doesn't make it true. A lot of these criticisms of Toronto I see above really have nothing to do with this city, but are just a fact of life, particularly in denser cities where people interact more closely. Having traveled to dozens of cities around the world, I'm 100% certain that Toronto is no ruder or more litter-prone than any other city.

 

[typezed]

People who are 25 or under have spent their lifetimes carrying juice boxes and individually wrapped cheesesticks to school. There's just far more crap to be thrown away, so there's more litter everywhere. Look in the suburbs along one of those noise barriers that shields the residents from the arterial streets. Litter everywhere. There's usually a McDonald's and a Tim Hortons and an On The Run down the street that contributes to the mess. Any of those places whose logos are regularly found tangling with the weeds should be taxed to pay for clean up crews. Culturally there is a struggle between people who value private space while viewing public space as something to be quickly driven through, and those of us who wish for improved public spaces and livable streets. That a good chunk of our public employees probably value their 905 backyards over any street or park may mean they're not very invested in doing their best jobs for the people of the city.

But mostly this thread is an example of the centuries held aggravations of old men.

 

[doady]

western society (of which Toronto is a part) is in moral decline.

a cultural erosion of values...

By "moral decline" and "cultural erosion of values", I suppose you are talking about athieists, immigrants and homosexuals?

 

[cfloryan]

By "moral decline" and "cultural erosion of values", I suppose you are talking about athieists, immigrants and homosexuals?

Haha funny. No I meant the decline in respect for others, for the community and for ourselves. Thanks for taking me for an idiot.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

i think the respect for others part is something that works well in smaller towns than a huge city like toronto. when you're in an environment where you are likely to run into the same people on a regular basis, people tend to be more sociable. it has more to do with human nature than toronto.

 

[milanista]

This thread is absolutely ridiculous.

Trump, Ritz-Carlton, Shangri-la, Four Seasons. Four of the world's largest and most famous 5 star hotels are currently under construction here.
Toronto FC is the most successful franchise in the MLS by FAR, and they brought with them a new stadium and new life to the exhibition grounds.
Liberty Village and The Distillery District, 2 hotbeds of urban activity, were wastelands 10 years ago.
The Waterfront is actually undergoing a real, positive transformation.
10 years ago, the intersection of Bremner and York had virtually nothing, go take a look at it now, and its not even done.
Beautiful transformations taking shape on Roncesvalles, and on Bloor Street (slowly).
ROM's Crystal, The Gardiner Museum, AGO's renovation all signify continued investment in the arts in Toronto. All in the past 5 years.
Love it or hate it, Cityplace stands where vacant lands once stood.
An interesting new bar/cafe/lounge/restaurant literally opens every 3 days.
Ossington Avenue, a wasteland of sketchy Vietnamese drug dealers and criminals 10 years ago is now so hot the city had to throw water on the fire.
The Dufferin jog is finally being eliminated.
Areas that you would never venture into 15 years ago (Parkdale, Junction, Cabbagetown etc.) are places that are so sought after that the average family can't even afford to buy property there anymore.
There is quite literally a different festival starting up every week/weekend between the months of June and September, all over the city, of all different varieties (music, film, food, culture, sport etc.)
The Sheppard line has actually spurred quite a bit of new development along Sheppard.
The subway to York University is actually underway, as well as a rail link to the airport.
And of course, the strongest condo boom in Canadian history.

Are you seriously going to ignore all these blatantly obvious truths and say Toronto is in decline because you see litter on the streets and people allow their dogs to shit on other people's lawn?

You need to get your shit together buddy.

 

[CityPainter]

i think the respect for others part is something that works well in smaller towns than a huge city like toronto. when you're in an environment where you are likely to run into the same people on a regular basis, people tend to be more sociable. it has more to do with human nature than toronto.

Again I am speaking only anecdotally from my point of view, but I myself have found more community in my corner of downtown than I ever did growing up in the suburbs. Almost every business I frequent is family run. The owners of the businesses on the ground floor of our condo live above, so they are also my neighbours. I see the same people every day; some know me by name, some don't but there is a definite sense of community. The antithesis to this is the suburbs, where everyone whisks through public areas in their cars (with tinted windows, no less) and shop at cookie-cutter chain businesses where staff turn over every 6 months. My neighbourhood feels more like a small town in that way.

Also, I think there are "two cities" in Toronto, in a way: one being the city that is frequented by visitors and tourists (Union Station, the financial district, Eaton Centre) which is indeed impersonal, and the other being the surrounding neighbourhoods where Torontonians actually live. Ironically, those "rude" people elbowing others out of the way in the mad rush hour dash for the Go Train are more likely to be suburbanites trying to escape the city than city dwellers themselves.

 

[Tewder]

We see what we want to see. If people want to believe Toronto is a city in decline, they will believe it.

Maybe it is not so much an issue of the city being in decline as expectations of the city being on an incline, er you know what I mean.

Also, how people interact daily with the city will very much inform their impression. I think that things like the state of public transit and the public realm can lead us to feel that everything is going to hell in a hand basket. Most people are not stopping to think how great the finance industry is or how cool the new AGO is or things like that. It's more about quality of life stuff, which even then is probably remarkably good compared to other places. Still, people here don't live in other places, they live in Toronto which comes back to my original point about daily myopia. Anyhow, criticism is good provided we can still have perspective enough at times, and when it counts, to realize that overall toronto is a great town. Why would we be on this form if we didn't fundamentally believe this to be so, no matter how grumbly we can get?

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

Again I am speaking only anecdotally from my point of view, but I myself have found more community in my corner of downtown than I ever did growing up in the suburbs. Almost every business I frequent is family run. The owners of the businesses on the ground floor of our condo live above, so they are also my neighbours. I see the same people every day; some know me by name, some don't but there is a definite sense of community. The antithesis to this is the suburbs, where everyone whisks through public areas in their cars (with tinted windows, no less) and shop at cookie-cutter chain businesses where staff turn over every 6 months. My neighbourhood feels more like a small town in that way.

Also, I think there are "two cities" in Toronto, in a way: one being the city that is frequented by visitors and tourists (Union Station, the financial district, Eaton Centre) which is indeed impersonal, and the other being the surrounding neighbourhoods where Torontonians actually live. Ironically, those "rude" people elbowing others out of the way in the mad rush hour dash for the Go Train are more likely to be suburbanites trying to escape the city than city dwellers themselves.

you just proved my point:

when you're in an environment where you are likely to run into the same people on a regular basis, people tend to be more sociable.

there are alot of people in toronto. you're likely to run into people that you will never see again or very infrequently, in addition to those you might see on a regular basis in your local node. alot of the land area in this city is suburban and there is less interaction because of the factors you have mentioned.