Toronto in decline..... (Back in MY day we had respect!)

[scarberiankhatru]

I'll have you know, Scarberian, that I had no problems operating a city with all four horsemen, just placate the police union with more police stations around said casino, the giga-mall was located far beyond the city centre at a freeway junction, the prison and toxic waste plants right on the border with the suburb. I liked having the variety of buildings, and all the extra subways I could afford was well worth it.

Oh, I know, I tended to build my cities around these 4 horsemen and I didn't put them on the edge or surrounded by police or parks...they're more interesting to look at than the standard random tiles and make you rich, so why not flaunt them downtown? In real life, though, something like a new casino really does feel like Death knocking at a city's door.

 

[adma]

In real life, though, something like a new casino really does feel like Death knocking at a city's door.

cf. Brantford, i.e. OLG Slots setting up shop in a failed intended science-museum edifice downtown--and we all know what happened to Colborne Street...

 

[barrytron3030]

Toronto is cleaner than most major cities. Our murder and crime rates rank among the lowest in the country. Yes some people are rude here but people are rude everywhere. The construction boom also brought a hefty amount of social housing. We're doing fine, thank you very much.

 

[Northern Light]

I want to be respectful of everyone's perspective, subjective though these things are.

I want to acknowledge that Toronto isn't perfect that that things could always be better, as shall it ever be such......

YET

There is something in both the tone and the substance of this thread I find an irritation; and an un-truth in what I believe to be prove-able way.

Of course, the objective is hard to come by; and yet we must agree on some common standards in order to discern the inherent truth in such propositions.

So, let's have a look-see at a few different categories.

First the easy (objective criteria)

Library Hours (status quo or increased in the last 30 years, most branches have 30% more hours than when I was a child)
Recreation (user fees, vs. old City UP, North York close to status quo, vs Scarb, Etob, York and EY down) for most users, status quo on average (adjusted for inflation)
Recreation (hours, status quo or up slightly, 4 net new facilities since amalgamation alone)
Unemployment (down from early 80's up from 1987, but below 1991 levels) overall consistent with or below historical averages)
Total wealth per capita (vs. 1980, adjusted for inflation, way up)

Parks (up in both number and hectarage, to highlight, Humber Bay Butterfly Habitat/Shores, Port Union Waterfront Park, McCowan District Park, Rouge Park, Canoe Landing, Music Garden, HTO park, Yorkville Park) etc. etc.

Minimum Wage adjusted for inflation (as at this year) virtually identical to mid-80s

Murders Mid-80s on average: 80'ish

Murders Mid 2000s on average: 60'ish (population up by 500,000)

*****

Now for some subjective observations:

I think the City is more beautiful not less. Far more street trees, far more flowers. (on the eastern Danforth, you basically have BIAs with flower displays non-stop from Broadview to Warden, I can tell you with certainty this was not so when I was a child (mid-80s)

Litter...in recent years (the last couple) I see this as once again under control, yes it got a bit worse post-amalgamation, but I think its back-on-track, and only marginally worse than in the mid-80s with 500,000 more residents as more workers/visitors (from 905) as well.

Public Housing.....have you see the new Rivertown (nee Donmount Court) or the partially rebuild Regent Park; with more to come..........?

I have to say, on the whole, from a beautified Bloor to a massively improved U of T campus to far better institutions of high art....I think this City is on the upswing not the downswing................

As for people with blaring ipods............does no one remember walkmans? LOL

 

[taal]

I got to say, I find this thread quite hilarious.

One point that's increasing clear is that the points used by both sides of this argument (if it can be called that) can paint the same city in decline or blessed with exponential growth ... at the very same time.

Huston / Dallas - ah, my favorite to Texas cities - anyone from either of these cities would find Toronto absolutely filthy - I'm not exaggerating one bit here either - you wouldn't believe how clean those cities are - why you ask? Well - let's just say I've been to downtown Houston on several occasions (not for the purpose of visiting) and MCC, in terms of pedestrianize activity alone would seem like NYC ...

Of course Toronto is dirty - I'm really curious where the notion we were clean ever came from (I somewhat despise it as well) - that's not to say that's a good thing - we could better, but when there are thousands of people out on the streets downtown that's a hard task to accomplish.


Anyway - ignoring other cities here, I think it's clear we face some problems - there's the on going social issues - although all cities face these (rich getting richer, poor getting poorer) - there's also business growth, which has been muted over the last 10 years or so and needs some hard policy changes at the city level to correct.

 

[junctionist]

Geez, for a "Toronto is in decline" story, that one sure was lame. That caller could have simply made that story up. If it was real, the women might have simply been jealous or had no appreciation for our strengths. Who knows when those women arrived. It could have been after a parade or public event, or on one of those windy days when a lot of litter blows around. That people were unfriendly was perhaps because they weren't used to the nuances of social interaction here (it varies from city to city).

Litter is a concern, though here's no need for hyperbole. Improved streetscaping would also help give the impression of a clean city.

 

[GraphicMatt]

I guess these questions are worth asking, though, given the venue: Is Scarborough in decline? Is North York in decline? Is Etobicoke in decline?

 

[jaycola]

I know Dallas better than most and I can tell you that Toronto is much too "Urban" for most white people from Dallas.
My wife is from Forth Worth and my Mother in law divides her time between Dallas and Toronto.

Dallas is a business district surrounded by ethnic enclaves. My Mother in law lives in a tidy North Dallas, suburban neighbourhood where the only blacks and hispanics I see are housekeepers, gardeners and pool maintainence people. I went to a "street festival" in downtown Dallas a couple years ago. There were less people there than an average neighbourhood street party and I could see no reason to stay more than a minute, literally.

When visiting once, I asked if we could go for Mexican food, not Tex Mex but real Mexican food. They took me to a place called Mi Cocina micocina. All white and modern, waiters in starched shirts and bow ties, table cloths on the tables and a water fall in the middle of the restaurant and not a single Latin person in the place that wasn't employed there. When I said I thought we could we could go to a Latino neighbourhood for the real thing, they said they never go to those places and they wouldn't know what was safe. You'd never hear this in Toronto.

The big draw for Urban life in Dallas is a warehouse district called "Deep Ellum". http://deepellumcommunity.com/. It's not a place I need to visit twice. We have a dozen cooler and hipper neighbourhoods in this city than the best that Dallas has to offer. Kensington, Queen West, Queen East, College, The Danforth, The Annex all have more to offer.

Here it the Calandar of events for Dallas this month . I dare you to find something that would make you leave your house. http://www.visitdallas.com/visitors/events/

Today I had lunch on College street at Taste of Little Italy. A pint of Beer, Veal on a bun and live music. It was great.

I love this city and we are lucky to live here. It has, like all big cities, it's warts but it is a vibrant and exciting town and comparing it to the boring and bland cities of America does nothing to lessen it in my eyes.

 

[adma]

In which case, I wonder what the opinion would be from visitors from Austin...

 

[Fresh Start]

Toronto's a great to live, never short of peculiar people and the hustle-bustle kinetic lifestyle to keep one occupied; but it has become way too expensive for many middle-class families to cope with. I used to live right in the heart of the downtown on King Street but over the course of 15 years now find myself holed up in eastern Scarborough. If I desired to move back to my old neighbourhood it'd probably cost me $800,000, for a much smaller lot than what I'd left. Such is life.

 

[tkip]

Oh, come on...

By "moral decline" and "cultural erosion of values", I suppose you are talking about athieists, immigrants and homosexuals?

This was an intentional attempt to insult me, right?

I mean you couldn't possibly have read my posts about me ranting about the overall increase of lewd behaviour, vulgar language, lack of manners, lack of shame, loss of personal responsibilty, dignity and self respect and the overall increase of stupid and selfish behaviour these days and still thought I was secretly trying to pin this on homosexuals, atheists and immigrants.

We as a society now, are more interested in excess and material wealth and our immediate needs with little regard for personal responsibility amidst a cutlure of self entitlement along with the disappearance of shame. Is this clear enough for you now? This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

Some idiot trying to fabricate an imaginary attack on those 3 groups being cooked up in my head because I pointed out examples of people behaving like shit these days....

 

[taal]

This was an intentional attempt to insult me, right?

I mean you couldn't possibly have read my posts about me ranting about the overall increase of lewd behaviour, vulgar language, lack of manners, lack of shame, loss of personal responsibilty, dignity and self respect and the overall increase of stupid and selfish behaviour these days and still thought I was secretly trying to pin this on homosexuals, atheists and immigrants.

We as a society now, are more interested in excess and material wealth and our immediate needs with little regard for personal responsibility amidst a cutlure of self entitlement along with the disappearance of shame. Is this clear enough for you now? This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

Some idiot trying to fabricate an imaginary attack on those 3 groups being cooked up in my head because I pointed out examples of people behaving like shit these days....

Actually I think he might have a point ... while I don't think you meant it that way ...

In regards to the comment in bold above: really now? And the society in the 60's 70's 80's were not just (if not more so) focused on these very things.

A lot of your prior points point directly to crime, and there's no proof that's been on an increase over the years. If not that - it seems you're taking your personal preferences and shaming society as a whole because they differ from them - for example 'stupid and selfish behaviour' please elaborate ? - self respect ? If anything this has increased over the years.

 

[Parkdalian]

^Well, tkip is also advocating that we all feel more shame. As someone who will be attending a little festival on July 3rd, I respectfully disagree. People who want other people to feel shame usually do because they are jealous of all the *fun* the shameful people are having.

Anyone who thinks Torontonians are rude should visit New York. Folks there can be very, very friendly - but they can also take rudeness to an exhilirating level. Our concerns about noise, litter, crazy drivers and drunk people vomiting everywhere seem positively quaint in comparison.

 

[junctionist]

There are different sides to the city that the 2.5 million residents of this city see. Some parts of Toronto in the suburbs no longer seem as clean as they once were. The wealthy 'boroughs' is over; the infrastructure in suburban Toronto aging and deteriorating, often tagged by vandals, while the city struggles with the basics like litter. Plenty of people are old enough to remember a time when North York was an inspiring place, at least to a group without a sophisticated sense of urban culture. Scarborough called itself the "city of the future".

For the slight decline of the suburbs as they age and in the amalgamated era, plenty of areas have improved since the 1980s to the point where saying "Toronto in decline" sounds crazy. In the 1980s, places like St. James Town and old industrial districts like the Portlands and Liberty were places were you could find abandoned wrecks of cars and garbage everywhere. Queen West was much grittier than it is today.

 

[TrickyRicky]

I want to focus my comments on the two issues originally brought up about cleanliness and behaviour. First I wanted to point out that your perspective on this issue has a lot to do with your age. All of us as we grow older tend to both understand the concept of responsibility and have reduced tolerance for the incongruent behaviour of others as we grow older.

I deal with a lot of people and property and I can say with great confidence that very few people below the age of 25 regardless of culture or socio-economic level are capable of managing their own waste. That means keeping their personal space clean, taking out the garbage, recycling, managing their own bodily fluids etc. Even though this is simple and self-evident I thought I would point it out because there is a large gap between the projection of ourselves and the reality of how people actually live. The question however is is this something that is in decline? To me the evidence tends to be the opposite. I find that young people are far more concious of these things then in the past, even if they lack the maturity to be able to consistently match their knowlege of what to do with real life actions. A young person is far more likely for instance to understand recycling and push for recycling options, even if they lack the consistency to remember to take the recycling out on the appropriate day. In contrast it is older people, the population in the city say 45 and old that, if they are not already militant about their standards of cleanliness, who are most likely to not care about littering, recycling, keeping their space clean, dumping garbage etc. I almost guarantee you that if you ever see someone dumping garbage it is a resident of this city 45 or older who lived here during this fictitious "golden era" that we somehow have lost.

On the otherhand I don't think we can dismiss the notion of a dirtier city. In some ways it is a lot dirtier. Tagging and graffiti, postering, more fast food, more pedestrian traffic, more street commerce, an incongruence between street cleaning requirements and street cleaning schedules etc. But on the issue of declining behaviour I don't see any evidence, infact I would not be surprised if on average people are more conscientious, not less than they were during the golden era.