Toronto in decline..... (Back in MY day we had respect!)

[urbandreamer]

So, rather than whining on a forum, what can you do?

Start a cleaning company?

 

[Tewder]

I deal with a lot of people and property and I can say with great confidence that very few people below the age of 25 regardless of culture or socio-economic level are capable of managing their own waste. That means keeping their personal space clean, taking out the garbage, recycling, managing their own bodily fluids etc....

My goodness, just who are you dealing with???

 

[taal]

My goodness, just who are you dealing with???

If I were to guess I'm assuming he's referring to people who spit on the ground ... which I agree is vulgar and rude - so we share that in common at the very least.
Was this less common in the past? I'm not sure

 

[Ladies Mile]

I always wonder what alternate universe writers like the OP hail from. It must be one where Toronto isn't one of the cleanest, quietest and safest cities its size in the Western world and definitely the cleanest, quietest and safest in the Western Hemisphere. Even comparitively spotless Vancouver suffers in comparison and anything south of the border from the US to Argentina is little more, visually and socially, than a series of landfill sites.

 

[that_girl_there]

I just read this whole forum from beginning to end. It seems like enough people here have taken down the original arguments about Toronto not being as pretty, successful, etc as in the past. And what is left now is an argument that has nothing to do with Toronto as a city - this idea that "society" is going downhill. Which would mean that, no matter where you are, young people are rude and vulgar and not like the good old days.

As a young person, I'm offended. We're not a perfect generation, but neither were you! We may have far too much PDA, but at least we don't force homosexuals to hide their feelings. We may have more disposable items, but we're not the ones who created this throw-away society - you are! And we may listen to loud music on the subway, but at least we're not scared to ride transit, not scared to associate ourselves with any class or race of people.

I'll be the first to admit I wish people restrained their PDA and turned down their ipods in public. But I don't think that older generations can just say 'you young people today with your music...' without thinking about all the hidden problems that existed back in the day - notably racism, homophobia and sexism. Americans are way friendlier than Canadians, and I love them for it. But I'm a straight, white person. Once you look at the average American's opinions about those that are "different", you realize that they are actually a few steps back from us. And that's why I'm proud to be a young Canadian.

Toronto is a great city. It's not perfect, and I think it's good that Torontonians are often the first to be able to point out our city's flaws. But we have to stop being so hard on this place - I've travelled North America and Australia extensively (the places most similar to Toronto) and Toronto is a shining star. You think we have homeless people? Go to Vancouver or San Francisco. Think our transit sucks? Go to any city in Australia! Think people are rude? Visit Montreal. Comparatively speaking, we're doing pretty damn good.

 

[UrbanFervour]

Well said, TGT.

I am so sick of Canadians (and Torontonians) cutting down this city's civic pride at every opportunity. Toronto is not perfect, but it is objectively a great dynamic and fast-changing city and we who live here should take pride in its continuing evolution as one of the great 21st century international melting-pot cities.

For those who don't like Toronto: leave! Life will go on, the city will continue to prosper and you will not be missed.

 

[TrickyRicky]

On bodily fluids, I figured someone would point that out but it's true and a real issue and anyone who has been out late at night in Spain will know why cleaning crews pressure wash the streets every morning. That means urination, vomit, spitting etc.

I also think TGT brings up an interesting dimension. It's like how people talk about old heritage buildings and think they are great. They are great but only in the context of having been retrofitted with modern systems. How crappy would it be if a building had no HVAC, electrical, modern plumbing, communications systems? In the "golden era" when this city was apparently such a great place so much crime and unacceptable behaviour such as rape, assault, theft, sexual assault, police brutality, domestic violence, mistreatment of the disabled and mentally ill, elder abuse, racism, homophobia etc. were not even reported and often not considered crimes at all. Anecdotal evidence I have heard from people who lived here in the past and even engaged in some such behaviours themselves suggests that they were ubiquitous, and yet we project a sense from that era as if it was clean and safe.

 

[tkip]

With all do respect. This thread isn't about social injustice. It's about urban and social decay in this city. Though I admit the social decay is more a case for general social decay in society at large these days.

And blaming another generation for creating a throw away society doesn't let you off the hook. Not when you might be just as involved in this throw away soceity and go along for the ride. Yes, I know the generations have disagreements about the good old days but there is some truth in this. People and things change but not necessarily for the better.

This isn't aimed at anyone in particular but rather it's a general list of questions to illustrate my point.....

Do you discard garbage where it's suppose to go? Do you offer your seats to those who clearly need it? Do you open doors for others and say "thank you" when someone does the same for you? Do you keep your bags on the floor and not on the seat beside you thus robbing someone of a place to sit? Do you never use strong language when out in public especially in the presence of young kids and families?

Do you actually look both ways when crossing the street and not just assuming the cars will stop instaneously as you cross? Have you cut in front of someone else in a line? Have you put your dog on a seat on a transit vechicle and forced other passengers to sit elsewhere?

Do you keep your voice low while watching a movie in a theatre? Do you wait for pedestrians to finish crossing before going through the intersection? Do you make room for those trying to exit a elevator or subway car? Do you stretch your legs out in front of you on a transit vechicle and people have to go around?

Do you ignore red lights? Park you car on the sidewalk? Do you let your kid talk back to you at all? Do you even have a curfew for your kids? Do you let your daughter wear really slutty outfits as a minor? Do you encourage your kids to engage in questionable behaviour because you want to be the cool parent?

Are you ever embarassed at your own behaviour or more importantly, that of your children? Do you take your young children to events where they aren't prepared for or have no right being, like say a movie for adults? Do you try to take your baby stroller down to massive street festivals NOT for children and then get stuck in the human traffic? Has you child witnesses you throwing garbage on the ground in a park?

Do you let your kids scream as loud as they can on transit vechicles? Do you let your kids run wild in stores and shops? Have you ever tossed garbage out your car window or thrown a cigarette butt just anywhere on the street or sidewalk or a park? Do you leave food and wrappings behind where you were sitting whether it's on a train, on a ledge or anywhere but in the garbage container?

Because these are just a handful of examples that I see all the time now out there and it didn't use to be the case when I was young. This is what I'm talking about. Urban decay mixed with social decay. We've lost manners, common sense, modesty, shame and dignity somewhere along the way and replaced it with excess, self entitlement, stupidity and vulgar behaviour......

And I'm srtill trying to understand this immigrant, atheist and homosexual angle. Is someone trying to say I'm blaming these groups for the moral decay or that it's these groups that are responsible which I don't think is the case at all. And obviously I'm not talking about everyone engaging in this behaviour or suggesting that everyone below a certain age is doing this.

Has anyone actually heard of someone generalizing? This is clearly what I was doing. And yeah, bad and stupid things happend in the past but there has absolutely been an explosion of shitty, selfish behaviour out there.

 

[doady]

This was an intentional attempt to insult me, right?

I mean you couldn't possibly have read my posts about me ranting about the overall increase of lewd behaviour, vulgar language, lack of manners, lack of shame, loss of personal responsibilty, dignity and self respect and the overall increase of stupid and selfish behaviour these days and still thought I was secretly trying to pin this on homosexuals, atheists and immigrants.

We as a society now, are more interested in excess and material wealth and our immediate needs with little regard for personal responsibility amidst a cutlure of self entitlement along with the disappearance of shame. Is this clear enough for you now? This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

Some idiot trying to fabricate an imaginary attack on those 3 groups being cooked up in my head because I pointed out examples of people behaving like shit these days....

Okay, so everyone behaved like angels back in the old days? They never did anything wrong? Only the new generation is morally bankrupt? Funny that you of all people complain about hurled insults.

I am one of the youngest on this forum (24 years old), and therefore according to you, I am more selfish, immodest, lewd, foul-mouthed, disrespectful, irresponsible, and stupid than almost anyone else on this forum.

And why is that, I wonder? If atheism, immigration, and homosexuality is not the reason, what is? You don't provide any reasoning (nor any evidence for that matter).

The only one who has experienced the "cultural erosion of values" that you described is you. After all, you are only one who has used a swear word in this thread, so you are only one using the "vulgar language" you complain about (not mention you complain about insults while you do nothing but insult an entire generation of Canadians). I think that is hipocrisy, and doesn't being a hypocrite also mean the "loss of personal responsibility" and the "disappearance of shame"?

 

[UrbanFervour]

With all do respect. This thread isn't about social injustice. It's about urban and social decay in this city. Though I admit the social decay is more a case for general social decay in society at large these days.

And blaming another generation for creating a throw away society doesn't let you off the hook. Not when you might be just as involved in this throw away soceity and go along for the ride. Yes, I know the generations have disagreements about the good old days but there is some truth in this. People and things change but not necessarily for the better.

This isn't aimed at anyone in particular but rather it's a general list of questions to illustrate my point.....

Do you discard garbage where it's suppose to go? Do you offer your seats to those who clearly need it? Do you open doors for others and say "thank you" when someone does the same for you? Do you keep your bags on the floor and not on the seat beside you thus robbing someone of a place to sit? Do you never use strong language when out in public especially in the presence of young kids and families?

Do you actually look both ways when crossing the street and not just assuming the cars will stop instaneously as you cross? Have you cut in front of someone else in a line? Have you put your dog on a seat on a transit vechicle and forced other passengers to sit elsewhere?

Do you keep your voice low while watching a movie in a theatre? Do you wait for pedestrians to finish crossing before going through the intersection? Do you make room for those trying to exit a elevator or subway car? Do you stretch your legs out in front of you on a transit vechicle and people have to go around?

Do you ignore red lights? Park you car on the sidewalk? Do you let your kid talk back to you at all? Do you even have a curfew for your kids? Do you let your daughter wear really slutty outfits as a minor? Do you encourage your kids to engage in questionable behaviour because you want to be the cool parent?

Are you ever embarassed at your own behaviour or more importantly, that of your children? Do you take your young children to events where they aren't prepared for or have no right being, like say a movie for adults? Do you try to take your baby stroller down to massive street festivals NOT for children and then get stuck in the human traffic? Has you child witnesses you throwing garbage on the ground in a park?

Do you let your kids scream as loud as they can on transit vechicles? Do you let your kids run wild in stores and shops? Have you ever tossed garbage out your car window or thrown a cigarette butt just anywhere on the street or sidewalk or a park? Do you leave food and wrappings behind where you were sitting whether it's on a train, on a ledge or anywhere but in the garbage container?

Because these are just a handful of examples that I see all the time now out there and it didn't use to be the case when I was young. This is what I'm talking about. Urban decay mixed with social decay. We've lost manners, common sense, modesty, shame and dignity somewhere along the way and replaced it with excess, self entitlement, stupidity and vulgar behaviour......

On the bright side, sanctimonious, puritanical prudes are fewer and farther between these days. For those who loathe being judged by repressed fuddy-duddy WASPs, this city has become a much more fun and interesting place to live.

 

[tkip]

Okay, so everyone behaved like angels back in the old days? They never did anything wrong? Only the new generation is morally bankrupt? Funny that you of all people complain about hurled insults.

I am one of the youngest on this forum (24 years old), and therefore according to you, I am more selfish, immodest, lewd, foul-mouthed, disrespectful, irresponsible, and stupid than almost anyone else on this forum.

And why is that, I wonder? If atheism, immigration, and homosexuality is not the reason, what is? You don't provide any reasoning (nor any evidence for that matter).

The only one who has experienced the "cultural erosion of values" that you described is you. After all, you are only one who has used a swear word in this thread, so you are only one using the "vulgar language" you complain about (not mention you complain about insults while you do nothing but insult an entire generation of Canadians). I think that is hipocrisy, and doesn't being a hypocrite also mean the "loss of personal responsibility" and the "disappearance of shame"?

I don't know you personally so I couldn't possibly know what you are like in real life.

You shouldn't have automatically assumed that I was talking about you personally or that I had convicted everyone in your age group. I originally said that I see this more with young people these days as opposed to older adults. I see a lot of really, crazy excessive behaviour from young people compared to my counterparts of my generation and that of my parents and granparents. Things have been slipping for a while.

All I can say is that I'm in my 40's and I've been watching things slowly unravel for a while regarding code of conduct and people's overall beahviour and absolutely it is much more vulgar and excess driven than when I was growing up. But I do blame the previous generation of adults for allowing this slippery slope to accelerate to the point where we are now.

Funny thing is I was out the other day with 2 friends, one my age and another in his 50's and we had this very discussion. And we traded stories about what we are witnessing and what we experience as young people and we came to the same conclusion. Things are worse but it seems the norm for those growing up in it....

That's the difference..... As for my supposed attack on an entire generation? Yeah, it is a generational thing and you need to grow thicker skin and take some critism instead of getting defensive and basically whining. Something that a lot of your generation does because I hear it all the time at work and it's almost always from people in their early 20's and under.

The biggerst group of whiners I have ever been exposed to....

 

[doady]

On the bright side, sanctimonious, puritanical prudes are fewer and farther between these days. For those who loathe being judged by repressed fuddy-duddy WASPs, this city has become a much more fun and interesting place to live.

Please don't quote tkip. I puts him on my ignore list. Quoting him kind of ruins it.

 

[that_girl_there]

tkip - Reading through your list of examples, I can't help but feel that:
1. I've seen people of all ages be both guilty of these crimes and completely devoid of them. I don't think it's at all right to say this is a modern problem when I see older people doing rude things all the time.
2. Again, this has nothing to do with Toronto...I feel like you're needlessly ragging on this city when you'd be just as likely to see this stuff in Mississauga, Newmarket, London, New York, Tokyo, etc etc etc. The difference with the first two places being, of course, that people spend less time in 'public' places when they are in suburban areas, so you don't have to deal with people as much.
3. Again, you're ignoring what all of the supposed "decency" of days past was hiding - a society that was sexist, racist, homophobic...and whole slew of other things accurately pointed out by TrickyRicky.

With all do respect. This thread isn't about social injustice. It's about urban and social decay in this city. Though I admit the social decay is more a case for general social decay in society at large these days.

So explain to me what any of this has to do with Toronto in general?

And blaming another generation for creating a throw away society doesn't let you off the hook. Not when you might be just as involved in this throw away soceity and go along for the ride. Yes, I know the generations have disagreements about the good old days but there is some truth in this. People and things change but not necessarily for the better.

Ah but it also doesn't get YOU off the hook for being part of the movement that created this society. You can't talk about "the good old days" and blame us kids for creating the society we were raised in! Someone had to raise us, and bring us to the point where we are now. And guess who that was?

Because these are just a handful of examples that I see all the time now out there and it didn't use to be the case when I was young. This is what I'm talking about. Urban decay mixed with social decay. We've lost manners, common sense, modesty, shame and dignity somewhere along the way and replaced it with excess, self entitlement, stupidity and vulgar behaviour......

That is a comment about social decay, not urban decay. Maybe you need a dictionary - urban decay means a city falling apart, abandoned buildings, no pedestrians...if anything, the reason you notice so much supposed social decay in Toronto is because our city is so undecayed that people are actually out there in public places. And more people means more jerks too (assuming jerks as a portion of society is a percentage). So you just have the chance to encounter more jerks.

But I think people mentioned all this back on page 1...

 

[tkip]

I just posted about this partially being the blame of the previous generation of adults having allowed things to get like this and mentioned that for those growing up in this, is the norm.

As for myself? I was brought up differently I suppose. I think a lot of people have the blinders on and don't want to look at what's happening out there. And if being modest, showing manners, not using strong language, refusing to litter, having personal responsibility, showing restraint, passing on drug use, not acting entitled and engaging in lewd behaviour and everything else excess driven makes me a prude, then so be it. I'm a prude.

I stand by my originally observations though. I still think there's moral decay out there and it's getting worse but people like me are either ignored or marginalized. And I was orginally trying to link the moral decay with urban decay....

 

[Fresh Start]

Society in general is more morally depraved today than it was even a decade ago. It just seems more pervasive in Toronto because people can get away with rude behaviour more freely here. When we've got five-years-olds cussing and describing sexual acts in explicit detail you know that something is profoundly wrong nowadays. First time people had boundaries and respected eachother's personal space, now if you if ask someone to excuse you when they're blocking a walkway, they try to fight you. I don't really know who or what is to blame for a generation of self-centered whiny, cowardly, handout-demanding Liberal brats whom feel they're entitled to everything and anything without limits; but it does make me long for a time when people were valued based on merit, rather than who one knows or their ad hominem background. If someone came up to me and said "I'm a Torontonian and I've never demanded a handout or special treatment. I carry my own life", I would probably shake their hand.

Maybe some of you are right though, one becomes more sensitive to these societal changes as they age. Maybe 25 years from now I'll look back at this time and think it was a lot more wholesome than the stuff going on by 2035.